NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case. However, I do think the overall quality of the meet can be improved by making some changes.
IMO, there are 5 things that should matter, in rough order:
1. Accessibility to NXR meet and the qualification process. There should be, as much as possible, similar accessibility to NXR no matter where you're from around the nation. That means huge, sprawling geographic regions are not desirable, and meets should be located near major airports and close enough to drive in a day from as many population centers as possible.
2. All AQ bids should be granted based on head to head results in fields comprising multiple states. New York currently has it's own regional, which is a problem. So does California. California doesn't have the issue of often not being deep enough, which shouldn't be surprising since it's a massive state that is more populous by itself than a few of the other regions. However, the California teams/athletes aren't forced to face the best from other states to earn their way, and don't even face off head-to-head against all of the participating teams from their own state (qualifiers are determined by a power merge of the best X teams, and individuals selected based on the best times from all the different races).
3. No teams or athletes should be excluded just because their state championship is on an unfortunate date.
4. Some kind of conflict with Brooks Nationals is inevitable unless you want the meet in late December. Those conflicts can be minimized by changing the date of the meet and inviting the top X finishers from Brooks if needed to allow participation for individuals that wouldn't otherwise be able to do both (e.g. individuals out west).
5. Historical performance at nationals, historical perceived depth at regionals, and current/trending population of the region, etc. should have some consideration, but shouldn't override the other concerns.
With that in mind, my solution would be:
1. Move the national meet to be a week after Brooks, and invite the top 5 finishers from the meet that weren't already qualified. This is necessary to be able to allow individuals from California and any state that is in the same NXR region as California to compete at both meets instead of having to choose.
2. Condense the regional races from 9 (with 2 state-only regions and 8 actual NXR races) to 7 by splitting up 2 of the historically deepest regions (Southwest and Midwest) and rearranging the geography of the east coast regions to make meets more accessible and regions more similar in population. Keep the field at 22 teams (which means 8 At-Large spots instead of 4), and raise the regional cap from 4 to 5 (because there are fewer regions and most of the regions would be more competitive than today). Have 7 individual qualifiers from each region instead of 5. That only adds 4 more athletes to the field than there are today, and with the added 5 Brooks At-large spots that would only be 9 more.
The 7 regions would be:
Northwest (held in Spokane WA, since Eagle Island in Boise was no longer working out) = Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah
Southwest (held in Los Angeles CA, or maybe at Woodward Park) = California, Nevada, Arizona and Hawaii
South (held in Dallas TX, or maybe stay in College Station) = Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado
Midwest (held in Minneapolis MN, or maybe Madison WI) = North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois
Mid-East (held in Pittsburgh PA) = Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware and DC
Southeast (held in Atlanta GA) = Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi
Northeast (held in Boston MA? or maybe just stay at Bowdoin in NY) = New York and the New England states (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massaschusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine)
The Southwest, Northeast, Mideast and Southeast regional races would need to be held the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN). The Northwest could be held as late as Thanksgiving weekend (though preferably probably the week before), and the Midwest and South could be held either the week after Thanksgiving or before Thanksgiving.
As an example of how this would have worked out, IMO the probable AQ teams and potential At-Large this year for boys would have been:
Northwest = Herriman UT, Jesuit OR, American Fork UT, and then 2 out of Westlake UT/Lincoln OR/Mead WA
Southwest = Jesuit CA, Redondo Union CA, San Clemente CA, Mira Costa CA, Woodbridge CA
South = Niwot CO, either Coronado CO or Southlake Carroll TX, Austin Vandegrift TX, and then either Summit CO or Jesuit LA
Midwest = Plainfield North IL, Downers Grove North IL, and then in some order Sioux Falls Lincoln SD, Rock Bridge MO and St. Louis University MO
Mideast = CBA NJ, Columbus North IN, Noblesville IN, Haddonfield NJ, State College PA
Southeast = Christ School NC, Broughton NC, Belen Jesuit FL, McCallie School TN, Buchholz FL
Northeast = Pinkerton Academy NH, North Rockland NY, Bishop Hendricken RI, Concord-Carlisle MA, Ward Melville NY
If we assume all the actual NXN qualifiers were invited, that means SO #3-4, NW #3-4, SW #3-4, MW#3, and ME#3 for all 8 At-Large selections. Changes would be NE#6 Pinkerton Academy NH displacing NY#2 Ward Melville NY (projected NE#5), MW#3 Noblesville IN edging out NE#2 Haddonfield NJ (projected ME#4), and MW#4 Downers Grove North IL displacing HL#2 St. Puis X NE (projected MW#7). All 3 of those changes would have the opportunity to race head-to-head with the teams that I projected to replace them, so it's purely 3 weaker AQ teams seeing more competition in a stronger regional field.
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
more detail
Should nike re draw the regions. The big problem being NY having their own region but not being competitive at NXN.
Screw this region thing. Nike should have a meet in each individual state.
And they should also take over timing, online registration, implement standardizations, course rating systems using drone analysis, course certification.
It's time.
No more baby rapers on the sidelines -- ahem, athletic dot net
The CA meet is already Thanksgiving weekend. That is why the merge is used for NXN qualification and the Brooks XC West regional is a week after the other 3 regions.
The CA meet is already Thanksgiving weekend. That is why the merge is used for NXN qualification and the Brooks XC West regional is a week after the other 3 regions.
Yes, I am aware. That's why I said the Southwest regional meet (which would include California) would be the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN).
That would mean it is the same time as the Brooks West race, but the only way to avoid that is to push NXN back to Christmas weekend which is getting absurdly long past the regular XC season. California individuals can qualify for NXN via NXR OR Brooks with that proposal, which means California athletes don't really need to choose between one or the other: those on good teams can go through NXR, those not on good teams can either go through NXR or roll the dice that there won't be more than 5 athletes ahead of them at Brooks that didn't qualify through NXR.
To clearly lay it out, with Thanksgiving being the base line:
Current schedule is that NXN is 1 week after Thanksgiving, Brooks is 2 weeks after Thanksgiving, NXR regional races are between 0-3 weeks before Thanksgiving..
My proposal would mean that NXN is 3 weeks after Thanksgiving, Brooks is 2 weeks after Thanksgiving, and NXR regional races are between 1 week before Thanksgiving and 1 week after Thanksgiving, leaving 0 conflicts for non-West Brooks regional races OR ANY State meet.
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
detail
For those disagreeing with my suggestion, would you care to explain what concerns you have? My assumption is that it's either because you guys think California should remain it's own region or that you think Colorado athletes should be in the Midwest instead of the South, but just wondering if there is any thought beyond that.
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case. However, I do think the overall quality of the meet can be improved by making some changes.
IMO, there are 5 things that should matter, in rough order:
1. Accessibility to NXR meet and the qualification process. There should be, as much as possible, similar accessibility to NXR no matter where you're from around the nation. That means huge, sprawling geographic regions are not desirable, and meets should be located near major airports and close enough to drive in a day from as many population centers as possible.
2. All AQ bids should be granted based on head to head results in fields comprising multiple states. New York currently has it's own regional, which is a problem. So does California. California doesn't have the issue of often not being deep enough, which shouldn't be surprising since it's a massive state that is more populous by itself than a few of the other regions. However, the California teams/athletes aren't forced to face the best from other states to earn their way, and don't even face off head-to-head against all of the participating teams from their own state (qualifiers are determined by a power merge of the best X teams, and individuals selected based on the best times from all the different races).
3. No teams or athletes should be excluded just because their state championship is on an unfortunate date.
4. Some kind of conflict with Brooks Nationals is inevitable unless you want the meet in late December. Those conflicts can be minimized by changing the date of the meet and inviting the top X finishers from Brooks if needed to allow participation for individuals that wouldn't otherwise be able to do both (e.g. individuals out west).
5. Historical performance at nationals, historical perceived depth at regionals, and current/trending population of the region, etc. should have some consideration, but shouldn't override the other concerns.
With that in mind, my solution would be:
1. Move the national meet to be a week after Brooks, and invite the top 5 finishers from the meet that weren't already qualified. This is necessary to be able to allow individuals from California and any state that is in the same NXR region as California to compete at both meets instead of having to choose.
2. Condense the regional races from 9 (with 2 state-only regions and 8 actual NXR races) to 7 by splitting up 2 of the historically deepest regions (Southwest and Midwest) and rearranging the geography of the east coast regions to make meets more accessible and regions more similar in population. Keep the field at 22 teams (which means 8 At-Large spots instead of 4), and raise the regional cap from 4 to 5 (because there are fewer regions and most of the regions would be more competitive than today). Have 7 individual qualifiers from each region instead of 5. That only adds 4 more athletes to the field than there are today, and with the added 5 Brooks At-large spots that would only be 9 more.
The 7 regions would be:
Northwest (held in Spokane WA, since Eagle Island in Boise was no longer working out) = Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah
Southwest (held in Los Angeles CA, or maybe at Woodward Park) = California, Nevada, Arizona and Hawaii
South (held in Dallas TX, or maybe stay in College Station) = Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado
Midwest (held in Minneapolis MN, or maybe Madison WI) = North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois
Mid-East (held in Pittsburgh PA) = Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware and DC
Southeast (held in Atlanta GA) = Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi
Northeast (held in Boston MA? or maybe just stay at Bowdoin in NY) = New York and the New England states (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massaschusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine)
The Southwest, Northeast, Mideast and Southeast regional races would need to be held the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN). The Northwest could be held as late as Thanksgiving weekend (though preferably probably the week before), and the Midwest and South could be held either the week after Thanksgiving or before Thanksgiving.
As an example of how this would have worked out, IMO the probable AQ teams and potential At-Large this year for boys would have been:
Northwest = Herriman UT, Jesuit OR, American Fork UT, and then 2 out of Westlake UT/Lincoln OR/Mead WA
Southwest = Jesuit CA, Redondo Union CA, San Clemente CA, Mira Costa CA, Woodbridge CA
South = Niwot CO, either Coronado CO or Southlake Carroll TX, Austin Vandegrift TX, and then either Summit CO or Jesuit LA
Midwest = Plainfield North IL, Downers Grove North IL, and then in some order Sioux Falls Lincoln SD, Rock Bridge MO and St. Louis University MO
Mideast = CBA NJ, Columbus North IN, Noblesville IN, Haddonfield NJ, State College PA
Southeast = Christ School NC, Broughton NC, Belen Jesuit FL, McCallie School TN, Buchholz FL
Northeast = Pinkerton Academy NH, North Rockland NY, Bishop Hendricken RI, Concord-Carlisle MA, Ward Melville NY
If we assume all the actual NXN qualifiers were invited, that means SO #3-4, NW #3-4, SW #3-4, MW#3, and ME#3 for all 8 At-Large selections. Changes would be NE#6 Pinkerton Academy NH displacing NY#2 Ward Melville NY, MW#3 Noblesville IN edging out NE#2 Haddonfield NJ, and HL#2 St. Puis X NE getting replaced with MW#4 Downers Grove North IL. All 3 of those changes would have the opportunity to race head-to-head with the teams that I projected to replace them, so it's purely 3 weaker AQ teams seeing more competition in a stronger regional field.
Colorado in the south makes absolutely no sense. Put them in SW with CA or in the Midwest with Illinois, Send Missouri and/or Illinois to the South. NXR is a reward for many of the kids and an incentive for the younger kids on the JV level. AZ does that, Dallas would be a huge let down and you would probably only get the Varsity teams. Runners would have more friends and family coming out to watch in the SW or Midwest.
For those disagreeing with my suggestion, would you care to explain what concerns you have? My assumption is that it's either because you guys think California should remain it's own region or that you think Colorado athletes should be in the Midwest instead of the South, but just wondering if there is any thought beyond that.
I haven't seen anyone disagree. I know as a Texas coach, I wouldn't want Colorado in our region. I think the elevation teams should stay against each other at elevation. I'm also fine with California being it's own region, I just prefer they do it with direct competition and an actual NXR race. NY just doesn't warrant it anymore. It's really bizarre for a state that size to have their own region and others that are way larger are lumped in with tons of states. All of this is pretty much off the history of two programs (FayMan and Saratoga.)
Before changing regions, Nike should also look at competitiveness of states over time and how many teams from states actively participate in the NXR. For example, did Mississippi have any teams at NXR? I do understand that you're less likely to make a long drive to finish 8th, but I think there are a handful of states that produce the most qualifiers year after year. Those should be distributed evenly.
For those disagreeing with my suggestion, would you care to explain what concerns you have? My assumption is that it's either because you guys think California should remain it's own region or that you think Colorado athletes should be in the Midwest instead of the South, but just wondering if there is any thought beyond that.
I haven't seen anyone disagree. I know as a Texas coach, I wouldn't want Colorado in our region. I think the elevation teams should stay against each other at elevation. I'm also fine with California being it's own region, I just prefer they do it with direct competition and an actual NXR race. NY just doesn't warrant it anymore. It's really bizarre for a state that size to have their own region and others that are way larger are lumped in with tons of states. All of this is pretty much off the history of two programs (FayMan and Saratoga.)
Before changing regions, Nike should also look at competitiveness of states over time and how many teams from states actively participate in the NXR. For example, did Mississippi have any teams at NXR? I do understand that you're less likely to make a long drive to finish 8th, but I think there are a handful of states that produce the most qualifiers year after year. Those should be distributed evenly.
Completely reasonable and understandable, and the feeling is somewhat mutual. CO runners don't want to travel from dry, early winter conditions to heat and humidity while going back an hour, regardless of the altitude change. Similarly, I doubt you would want to come up to the dry cold at altitude. It isn't personal and nobody is "scared" of anyone, it is just common sense in keeping conditions at least somewhat common amongst the region for the teams competing. We would see you then in PDX where we are mutually miserable in the rain ;)
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case.
On the boys side, back in the day, FM is the only team that was a perennial powerhouse, and every now and then, were other teams that rose to their level (such as Saratoga, Corning, Liverpool, and St Anthony’s). But now that FM is off the map, there doesn’t seem to be any other boys team raising the bar.
We’ll need to see how the girls teams do at NXN this year.
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case. However, I do think the overall quality of the meet can be improved by making some changes.
IMO, there are 5 things that should matter, in rough order:
1. Accessibility to NXR meet and the qualification process. There should be, as much as possible, similar accessibility to NXR no matter where you're from around the nation. That means huge, sprawling geographic regions are not desirable, and meets should be located near major airports and close enough to drive in a day from as many population centers as possible.
2. All AQ bids should be granted based on head to head results in fields comprising multiple states. New York currently has it's own regional, which is a problem. So does California. California doesn't have the issue of often not being deep enough, which shouldn't be surprising since it's a massive state that is more populous by itself than a few of the other regions. However, the California teams/athletes aren't forced to face the best from other states to earn their way, and don't even face off head-to-head against all of the participating teams from their own state (qualifiers are determined by a power merge of the best X teams, and individuals selected based on the best times from all the different races).
3. No teams or athletes should be excluded just because their state championship is on an unfortunate date.
4. Some kind of conflict with Brooks Nationals is inevitable unless you want the meet in late December. Those conflicts can be minimized by changing the date of the meet and inviting the top X finishers from Brooks if needed to allow participation for individuals that wouldn't otherwise be able to do both (e.g. individuals out west).
5. Historical performance at nationals, historical perceived depth at regionals, and current/trending population of the region, etc. should have some consideration, but shouldn't override the other concerns.
With that in mind, my solution would be:
1. Move the national meet to be a week after Brooks, and invite the top 5 finishers from the meet that weren't already qualified. This is necessary to be able to allow individuals from California and any state that is in the same NXR region as California to compete at both meets instead of having to choose.
2. Condense the regional races from 9 (with 2 state-only regions and 8 actual NXR races) to 7 by splitting up 2 of the historically deepest regions (Southwest and Midwest) and rearranging the geography of the east coast regions to make meets more accessible and regions more similar in population. Keep the field at 22 teams (which means 8 At-Large spots instead of 4), and raise the regional cap from 4 to 5 (because there are fewer regions and most of the regions would be more competitive than today). Have 7 individual qualifiers from each region instead of 5. That only adds 4 more athletes to the field than there are today, and with the added 5 Brooks At-large spots that would only be 9 more.
The 7 regions would be:
Northwest (held in Spokane WA, since Eagle Island in Boise was no longer working out) = Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah
Southwest (held in Los Angeles CA, or maybe at Woodward Park) = California, Nevada, Arizona and Hawaii
South (held in Dallas TX, or maybe stay in College Station) = Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado
Midwest (held in Minneapolis MN, or maybe Madison WI) = North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois
Mid-East (held in Pittsburgh PA) = Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware and DC
Southeast (held in Atlanta GA) = Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi
Northeast (held in Boston MA? or maybe just stay at Bowdoin in NY) = New York and the New England states (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massaschusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine)
The Southwest, Northeast, Mideast and Southeast regional races would need to be held the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN). The Northwest could be held as late as Thanksgiving weekend (though preferably probably the week before), and the Midwest and South could be held either the week after Thanksgiving or before Thanksgiving.
As an example of how this would have worked out, IMO the probable AQ teams and potential At-Large this year for boys would have been:
Northwest = Herriman UT, Jesuit OR, American Fork UT, and then 2 out of Westlake UT/Lincoln OR/Mead WA
Southwest = Jesuit CA, Redondo Union CA, San Clemente CA, Mira Costa CA, Woodbridge CA
South = Niwot CO, either Coronado CO or Southlake Carroll TX, Austin Vandegrift TX, and then either Summit CO or Jesuit LA
Midwest = Plainfield North IL, Downers Grove North IL, and then in some order Sioux Falls Lincoln SD, Rock Bridge MO and St. Louis University MO
Mideast = CBA NJ, Columbus North IN, Noblesville IN, Haddonfield NJ, State College PA
Southeast = Christ School NC, Broughton NC, Belen Jesuit FL, McCallie School TN, Buchholz FL
Northeast = Pinkerton Academy NH, North Rockland NY, Bishop Hendricken RI, Concord-Carlisle MA, Ward Melville NY
If we assume all the actual NXN qualifiers were invited, that means SO #3-4, NW #3-4, SW #3-4, MW#3, and ME#3 for all 8 At-Large selections. Changes would be NE#6 Pinkerton Academy NH displacing NY#2 Ward Melville NY, MW#3 Noblesville IN edging out NE#2 Haddonfield NJ, and HL#2 St. Puis X NE getting replaced with MW#4 Downers Grove North IL. All 3 of those changes would have the opportunity to race head-to-head with the teams that I projected to replace them, so it's purely 3 weaker AQ teams seeing more competition in a stronger regional field.
Colorado in the south makes absolutely no sense. Put them in SW with CA or in the Midwest with Illinois, Send Missouri and/or Illinois to the South. NXR is a reward for many of the kids and an incentive for the younger kids on the JV level. AZ does that, Dallas would be a huge let down and you would probably only get the Varsity teams. Runners would have more friends and family coming out to watch in the SW or Midwest.
Most of Illinois is within reasonable driving distance of what would be the Midwest regional meet: the center of population (CoP) for Illinois is ~430 miles from Minneapolis or 170 miles from Madison.
Why would you possibly have Illinois go all the way to the South? The Midwest is FAR more accessible, not to mention logical, for Illinois.
Colorado is flying to any meet regardless, so whether they go to the South, Midwest or Southwest doesn't matter in terms of accessibility. It does matter, though, in terms of competitive balance: without Colorado included, the South is the weakest of those 3 regions in terms of historical depth (because Illinois by itself is roughly on par with Texas historically, and California has been better, and the Heartland has had vastly more depth than Arkansas/Oklahoma/Louisiana/New Mexico) even if you add Missouri to the South. By adding Missouri to the Midwest and Colorado to the South, you have 3 pretty well balanced regions (Southwest anchored by California, South anchored by Colorado and Texas, and the Midwest anchored by Illinois and Minnesota and Missouri).
For those disagreeing with my suggestion, would you care to explain what concerns you have? My assumption is that it's either because you guys think California should remain it's own region or that you think Colorado athletes should be in the Midwest instead of the South, but just wondering if there is any thought beyond that.
I haven't seen anyone disagree. I know as a Texas coach, I wouldn't want Colorado in our region. I think the elevation teams should stay against each other at elevation. I'm also fine with California being it's own region, I just prefer they do it with direct competition and an actual NXR race. NY just doesn't warrant it anymore. It's really bizarre for a state that size to have their own region and others that are way larger are lumped in with tons of states. All of this is pretty much off the history of two programs (FayMan and Saratoga.)
Before changing regions, Nike should also look at competitiveness of states over time and how many teams from states actively participate in the NXR. For example, did Mississippi have any teams at NXR? I do understand that you're less likely to make a long drive to finish 8th, but I think there are a handful of states that produce the most qualifiers year after year. Those should be distributed evenly.
I am assuming people voting down a post means that they disagree with it for one reason or another.
The states at elevation already aren't all in the same region, but the ones that are are already part of by FAR the deepest region. Splitting those states up would help balance out the regions, making the competition much more comparable.
Would you feel the same way about California if they (like New York) had a stretch of years where their teams were not competitive at the national meet? Adding Arizona/Nevada/Hawaii doesn't add a whole lot of national caliber teams historically, but it does help offset the potential for a California slump. Though, most importantly, the change would mean that you are splitting up a region far too deep compared to the other regions (Southwest) and finally having California's qualifications based on head-to-head results rather than a power merge. The latter necessitates the change of schedule and opens up a perfect opportunity to incorporate other states. The alternative that leaves California it's own state would mean a massive geographic "Northwest" region that includes Nevada and Arizona, or else send Nevada and Arizona all the way to Texas. Neither seem nearly as reasonable, so if you are breaking up the excessively deep Southwest, I feel like that's the best scenario for accessibility and competitive balance.
I agree with you about the need to consider how many schools from each state currently attend and compete well at NXR. I also think, though, that the depth of teams that can be competitive at NXN should also be considered.
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case.
On the boys side, back in the day, FM is the only team that was a perennial powerhouse, and every now and then, were other teams that rose to their level (such as Saratoga, Corning, Liverpool, and St Anthony’s). But now that FM is off the map, there doesn’t seem to be any other boys team raising the bar.
We’ll need to see how the girls teams do at NXN this year.
Yes, there were a handful of programs from New York that have made it. But there have been years where New York had 3+ boys teams very much competitive nationally. That certainly suggests to me that it isn't necessarily weaker than other regions. You can pretty much say the same thing about the South and Southlake Carroll/The Woodlands so frequently being represented with only a very small handful of others and plenty of years where the rare other teams weren't always competitive; or the Northeast with CBA being the primary program and a revolving door of teams that aren't always competitive; or the Heartland with Wayzata being the primary program and a revolving door of teams that weren't always competitive.
Those other regions have, at various times, had other programs rise up and be competitive. No reason why New York can't do the same.
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case. However, I do think the overall quality of the meet can be improved by making some changes.
IMO, there are 5 things that should matter, in rough order:
1. Accessibility to NXR meet and the qualification process. There should be, as much as possible, similar accessibility to NXR no matter where you're from around the nation. That means huge, sprawling geographic regions are not desirable, and meets should be located near major airports and close enough to drive in a day from as many population centers as possible.
2. All AQ bids should be granted based on head to head results in fields comprising multiple states. New York currently has it's own regional, which is a problem. So does California. California doesn't have the issue of often not being deep enough, which shouldn't be surprising since it's a massive state that is more populous by itself than a few of the other regions. However, the California teams/athletes aren't forced to face the best from other states to earn their way, and don't even face off head-to-head against all of the participating teams from their own state (qualifiers are determined by a power merge of the best X teams, and individuals selected based on the best times from all the different races).
3. No teams or athletes should be excluded just because their state championship is on an unfortunate date.
4. Some kind of conflict with Brooks Nationals is inevitable unless you want the meet in late December. Those conflicts can be minimized by changing the date of the meet and inviting the top X finishers from Brooks if needed to allow participation for individuals that wouldn't otherwise be able to do both (e.g. individuals out west).
5. Historical performance at nationals, historical perceived depth at regionals, and current/trending population of the region, etc. should have some consideration, but shouldn't override the other concerns.
With that in mind, my solution would be:
1. Move the national meet to be a week after Brooks, and invite the top 5 finishers from the meet that weren't already qualified. This is necessary to be able to allow individuals from California and any state that is in the same NXR region as California to compete at both meets instead of having to choose.
2. Condense the regional races from 9 (with 2 state-only regions and 8 actual NXR races) to 7 by splitting up 2 of the historically deepest regions (Southwest and Midwest) and rearranging the geography of the east coast regions to make meets more accessible and regions more similar in population. Keep the field at 22 teams (which means 8 At-Large spots instead of 4), and raise the regional cap from 4 to 5 (because there are fewer regions and most of the regions would be more competitive than today). Have 7 individual qualifiers from each region instead of 5. That only adds 4 more athletes to the field than there are today, and with the added 5 Brooks At-large spots that would only be 9 more.
The 7 regions would be:
Northwest (held in Spokane WA, since Eagle Island in Boise was no longer working out) = Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah
Southwest (held in Los Angeles CA, or maybe at Woodward Park) = California, Nevada, Arizona and Hawaii
South (held in Dallas TX, or maybe stay in College Station) = Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado
Midwest (held in Minneapolis MN, or maybe Madison WI) = North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois
Mid-East (held in Pittsburgh PA) = Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware and DC
Southeast (held in Atlanta GA) = Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi
Northeast (held in Boston MA? or maybe just stay at Bowdoin in NY) = New York and the New England states (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massaschusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine)
The Southwest, Northeast, Mideast and Southeast regional races would need to be held the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN). The Northwest could be held as late as Thanksgiving weekend (though preferably probably the week before), and the Midwest and South could be held either the week after Thanksgiving or before Thanksgiving.
As an example of how this would have worked out, IMO the probable AQ teams and potential At-Large this year for boys would have been:
Northwest = Herriman UT, Jesuit OR, American Fork UT, and then 2 out of Westlake UT/Lincoln OR/Mead WA
Southwest = Jesuit CA, Redondo Union CA, San Clemente CA, Mira Costa CA, Woodbridge CA
South = Niwot CO, either Coronado CO or Southlake Carroll TX, Austin Vandegrift TX, and then either Summit CO or Jesuit LA
Midwest = Plainfield North IL, Downers Grove North IL, and then in some order Sioux Falls Lincoln SD, Rock Bridge MO and St. Louis University MO
Mideast = CBA NJ, Columbus North IN, Noblesville IN, Haddonfield NJ, State College PA
Southeast = Christ School NC, Broughton NC, Belen Jesuit FL, McCallie School TN, Buchholz FL
Northeast = Pinkerton Academy NH, North Rockland NY, Bishop Hendricken RI, Concord-Carlisle MA, Ward Melville NY
If we assume all the actual NXN qualifiers were invited, that means SO #3-4, NW #3-4, SW #3-4, MW#3, and ME#3 for all 8 At-Large selections. Changes would be NE#6 Pinkerton Academy NH displacing NY#2 Ward Melville NY (projected NE#5), MW#3 Noblesville IN edging out NE#2 Haddonfield NJ (projected ME#4), and MW#4 Downers Grove North IL displacing HL#2 St. Puis X NE (projected MW#7). All 3 of those changes would have the opportunity to race head-to-head with the teams that I projected to replace them, so it's purely 3 weaker AQ teams seeing more competition in a stronger regional field.
Spokane is an awful hosting site, especially if Utah schools get added as it makes it a 10 hour drive from Salt Lake.
Seattle to Boise flights can be had for $99 if you book 1 month out. Portland to Boise is $140. Bozeman is $182. Salt Lake is usually around $150.
Boise to Spokane was $400 since the Spokane airport is so small. There are also way more dining and hotel options within 30 minutes of the course vs. this year and the venue moving forward.
Eagle Island could have worked out, but the meet needed to move to a 2 day meet and it would have required shuttling for spectators from Eagle High School and Rocky Mountain, both of which are within 10 minutes of Eagle Island. I think the fixation on keeping it the historical course also limited options.
Spokane is an awful hosting site, especially if Utah schools get added as it makes it a 10 hour drive from Salt Lake.
Seattle to Boise flights can be had for $99 if you book 1 month out. Portland to Boise is $140. Bozeman is $182. Salt Lake is usually around $150.
Boise to Spokane was $400 since the Spokane airport is so small. There are also way more dining and hotel options within 30 minutes of the course vs. this year and the venue moving forward.
Eagle Island could have worked out, but the meet needed to move to a 2 day meet and it would have required shuttling for spectators from Eagle High School and Rocky Mountain, both of which are within 10 minutes of Eagle Island. I think the fixation on keeping it the historical course also limited options.
I absolutely agree that Boise was a preferable location to Spokane - even without considering Utah. Unfortunately, Nike didn't agree and they moved it to Spokane. Since Nike doesn't want the meet in Boise anymore, Spokane seems like the next best option if Utah is included; Seattle or Portland would be a muddy mess every year and EVERYONE would have to fly in aside from Washington and northern Oregon teams (if in Seattle) or Oregon and western Washington teams (if in Portland). The other alternative would be Missoula, but that's an even smaller airport than Spokane and I'm not sure if they have many frequent flights from SLC to Missoula (but they do to Spokane). I'm actually surprised you said Boise to Spokane costs $400, since there are flights between Spokane and Boise every day through Alaska Air (and I imagine once the construction at the airport is finished over the course of the next year the airport will get even busier - including to/from Boise, since Alaska is the primary airline in the concourse that is being expanded).
edit: I just googled "round trip flights from Boise to Spokane" and the first result said as low as $137 ... is $400 just an exaggeration?
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case. However, I do think the overall quality of the meet can be improved by making some changes.
IMO, there are 5 things that should matter, in rough order:
1. Accessibility to NXR meet and the qualification process. There should be, as much as possible, similar accessibility to NXR no matter where you're from around the nation. That means huge, sprawling geographic regions are not desirable, and meets should be located near major airports and close enough to drive in a day from as many population centers as possible.
2. All AQ bids should be granted based on head to head results in fields comprising multiple states. New York currently has it's own regional, which is a problem. So does California. California doesn't have the issue of often not being deep enough, which shouldn't be surprising since it's a massive state that is more populous by itself than a few of the other regions. However, the California teams/athletes aren't forced to face the best from other states to earn their way, and don't even face off head-to-head against all of the participating teams from their own state (qualifiers are determined by a power merge of the best X teams, and individuals selected based on the best times from all the different races).
3. No teams or athletes should be excluded just because their state championship is on an unfortunate date.
4. Some kind of conflict with Brooks Nationals is inevitable unless you want the meet in late December. Those conflicts can be minimized by changing the date of the meet and inviting the top X finishers from Brooks if needed to allow participation for individuals that wouldn't otherwise be able to do both (e.g. individuals out west).
5. Historical performance at nationals, historical perceived depth at regionals, and current/trending population of the region, etc. should have some consideration, but shouldn't override the other concerns.
With that in mind, my solution would be:
1. Move the national meet to be a week after Brooks, and invite the top 5 finishers from the meet that weren't already qualified. This is necessary to be able to allow individuals from California and any state that is in the same NXR region as California to compete at both meets instead of having to choose.
2. Condense the regional races from 9 (with 2 state-only regions and 8 actual NXR races) to 7 by splitting up 2 of the historically deepest regions (Southwest and Midwest) and rearranging the geography of the east coast regions to make meets more accessible and regions more similar in population. Keep the field at 22 teams (which means 8 At-Large spots instead of 4), and raise the regional cap from 4 to 5 (because there are fewer regions and most of the regions would be more competitive than today). Have 7 individual qualifiers from each region instead of 5. That only adds 4 more athletes to the field than there are today, and with the added 5 Brooks At-large spots that would only be 9 more.
The 7 regions would be:
Northwest (held in Spokane WA, since Eagle Island in Boise was no longer working out) = Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah
Southwest (held in Los Angeles CA, or maybe at Woodward Park) = California, Nevada, Arizona and Hawaii
South (held in Dallas TX, or maybe stay in College Station) = Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado
Midwest (held in Minneapolis MN, or maybe Madison WI) = North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois
Mid-East (held in Pittsburgh PA) = Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware and DC
Southeast (held in Atlanta GA) = Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi
Northeast (held in Boston MA? or maybe just stay at Bowdoin in NY) = New York and the New England states (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massaschusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine)
The Southwest, Northeast, Mideast and Southeast regional races would need to be held the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN). The Northwest could be held as late as Thanksgiving weekend (though preferably probably the week before), and the Midwest and South could be held either the week after Thanksgiving or before Thanksgiving.
As an example of how this would have worked out, IMO the probable AQ teams and potential At-Large this year for boys would have been:
Northwest = Herriman UT, Jesuit OR, American Fork UT, and then 2 out of Westlake UT/Lincoln OR/Mead WA
Southwest = Jesuit CA, Redondo Union CA, San Clemente CA, Mira Costa CA, Woodbridge CA
South = Niwot CO, either Coronado CO or Southlake Carroll TX, Austin Vandegrift TX, and then either Summit CO or Jesuit LA
Midwest = Plainfield North IL, Downers Grove North IL, and then in some order Sioux Falls Lincoln SD, Rock Bridge MO and St. Louis University MO
Mideast = CBA NJ, Columbus North IN, Noblesville IN, Haddonfield NJ, State College PA
Southeast = Christ School NC, Broughton NC, Belen Jesuit FL, McCallie School TN, Buchholz FL
Northeast = Pinkerton Academy NH, North Rockland NY, Bishop Hendricken RI, Concord-Carlisle MA, Ward Melville NY
If we assume all the actual NXN qualifiers were invited, that means SO #3-4, NW #3-4, SW #3-4, MW#3, and ME#3 for all 8 At-Large selections. Changes would be NE#6 Pinkerton Academy NH displacing NY#2 Ward Melville NY (projected NE#5), MW#3 Noblesville IN edging out NE#2 Haddonfield NJ (projected ME#4), and MW#4 Downers Grove North IL displacing HL#2 St. Puis X NE (projected MW#7). All 3 of those changes would have the opportunity to race head-to-head with the teams that I projected to replace them, so it's purely 3 weaker AQ teams seeing more competition in a stronger regional field.
I love this-but yes, move Northeast OUT OF BOWDOIN - that's a horrible venue, and I don't mean the toughness of the course(although a kinder course would help imo) - the logistics are awful, not enough parking, bathrooms or spectating.
I love this-but yes, move Northeast OUT OF BOWDOIN - that's a horrible venue, and I don't mean the toughness of the course(although a kinder course would help imo) - the logistics are awful, not enough parking, bathrooms or spectating.
Thanks for chiming in! Glad to hear a local perspective, especially from a New Yorker instead of someone from elsewhere in the Northeast (since the meet is already in New York and you guys are even more familiar with Feds always being there). Aside from VCP (which wouldn't particularly be central for NY + New England), are there any other notable courses that should be considered that is central to the region and preferably close enough to a major airport? Franklin Park in Boston was the first to come to mind. Potentially also Wickham Park (Hartford CT) or Derryfield Park (Manchester NH).
NY not often being competitive is an issue, but it isn't always going to be the case. However, I do think the overall quality of the meet can be improved by making some changes.
IMO, there are 5 things that should matter, in rough order:
1. Accessibility to NXR meet and the qualification process. There should be, as much as possible, similar accessibility to NXR no matter where you're from around the nation. That means huge, sprawling geographic regions are not desirable, and meets should be located near major airports and close enough to drive in a day from as many population centers as possible.
2. All AQ bids should be granted based on head to head results in fields comprising multiple states. New York currently has it's own regional, which is a problem. So does California. California doesn't have the issue of often not being deep enough, which shouldn't be surprising since it's a massive state that is more populous by itself than a few of the other regions. However, the California teams/athletes aren't forced to face the best from other states to earn their way, and don't even face off head-to-head against all of the participating teams from their own state (qualifiers are determined by a power merge of the best X teams, and individuals selected based on the best times from all the different races).
3. No teams or athletes should be excluded just because their state championship is on an unfortunate date.
4. Some kind of conflict with Brooks Nationals is inevitable unless you want the meet in late December. Those conflicts can be minimized by changing the date of the meet and inviting the top X finishers from Brooks if needed to allow participation for individuals that wouldn't otherwise be able to do both (e.g. individuals out west).
5. Historical performance at nationals, historical perceived depth at regionals, and current/trending population of the region, etc. should have some consideration, but shouldn't override the other concerns.
With that in mind, my solution would be:
1. Move the national meet to be a week after Brooks, and invite the top 5 finishers from the meet that weren't already qualified. This is necessary to be able to allow individuals from California and any state that is in the same NXR region as California to compete at both meets instead of having to choose.
2. Condense the regional races from 9 (with 2 state-only regions and 8 actual NXR races) to 7 by splitting up 2 of the historically deepest regions (Southwest and Midwest) and rearranging the geography of the east coast regions to make meets more accessible and regions more similar in population. Keep the field at 22 teams (which means 8 At-Large spots instead of 4), and raise the regional cap from 4 to 5 (because there are fewer regions and most of the regions would be more competitive than today). Have 7 individual qualifiers from each region instead of 5. That only adds 4 more athletes to the field than there are today, and with the added 5 Brooks At-large spots that would only be 9 more.
The 7 regions would be:
Northwest (held in Spokane WA, since Eagle Island in Boise was no longer working out) = Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah
Southwest (held in Los Angeles CA, or maybe at Woodward Park) = California, Nevada, Arizona and Hawaii
South (held in Dallas TX, or maybe stay in College Station) = Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado
Midwest (held in Minneapolis MN, or maybe Madison WI) = North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois
Mid-East (held in Pittsburgh PA) = Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware and DC
Southeast (held in Atlanta GA) = Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi
Northeast (held in Boston MA? or maybe just stay at Bowdoin in NY) = New York and the New England states (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massaschusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine)
The Southwest, Northeast, Mideast and Southeast regional races would need to be held the week after Thanksgiving (the current week of NXN). The Northwest could be held as late as Thanksgiving weekend (though preferably probably the week before), and the Midwest and South could be held either the week after Thanksgiving or before Thanksgiving.
As an example of how this would have worked out, IMO the probable AQ teams and potential At-Large this year for boys would have been:
Northwest = Herriman UT, Jesuit OR, American Fork UT, and then 2 out of Westlake UT/Lincoln OR/Mead WA
Southwest = Jesuit CA, Redondo Union CA, San Clemente CA, Mira Costa CA, Woodbridge CA
South = Niwot CO, either Coronado CO or Southlake Carroll TX, Austin Vandegrift TX, and then either Summit CO or Jesuit LA
Midwest = Plainfield North IL, Downers Grove North IL, and then in some order Sioux Falls Lincoln SD, Rock Bridge MO and St. Louis University MO
Mideast = CBA NJ, Columbus North IN, Noblesville IN, Haddonfield NJ, State College PA
Southeast = Christ School NC, Broughton NC, Belen Jesuit FL, McCallie School TN, Buchholz FL
Northeast = Pinkerton Academy NH, North Rockland NY, Bishop Hendricken RI, Concord-Carlisle MA, Ward Melville NY
If we assume all the actual NXN qualifiers were invited, that means SO #3-4, NW #3-4, SW #3-4, MW#3, and ME#3 for all 8 At-Large selections. Changes would be NE#6 Pinkerton Academy NH displacing NY#2 Ward Melville NY (projected NE#5), MW#3 Noblesville IN edging out NE#2 Haddonfield NJ (projected ME#4), and MW#4 Downers Grove North IL displacing HL#2 St. Puis X NE (projected MW#7). All 3 of those changes would have the opportunity to race head-to-head with the teams that I projected to replace them, so it's purely 3 weaker AQ teams seeing more competition in a stronger regional field.
I love this-but yes, move Northeast OUT OF BOWDOIN - that's a horrible venue, and I don't mean the toughness of the course(although a kinder course would help imo) - the logistics are awful, not enough parking, bathrooms or spectating.
The logistics of Bowdoin are embarrassingly bad, and what resources there are, are handled poorly. The bathrooms are minimal and disgusting, the portajohns are quickly overwhelmed, the cheapskates running the event won’t spring for an extra body to man the north entrance to the parking area… the course is great, but the organizers need to step their game up. It’s completely bush-league.