The splits for this race were crazier than Cram or Aouita. 400m: 53.2; 800m: 1:50.4; 1000m: 2:19.2; 1200m: 2:47.5; L400m: 56.5
A shame he never won any medals.
This race proves that supershoes are so utterly useless in the 1500. If guys are going through 400 in 53 in 1985 and finishing in 3:29, then no doubt with better pacing guys are running 3:26-3:27 today.
This race proves that supershoes are so utterly useless in the 1500. If guys are going through 400 in 53 in 1985 and finishing in 3:29, then no doubt with better pacing guys are running 3:26-3:27 today.
100%.
The only case you can make for "superspikes" helping over distances like the 800 and 1500m are on a training level - that potentially higher volume track workout athletes don't beat themselves up as much in better cushioned spikes hence maybe they can go slightly deeper in workouts and/or recovery time is shortened. Then again for athletes at this level, they are doing pretty well in workouts anyway and have elite powers of recovery to begin with. In terms of an actual race? Total net zero. The "smoother" ride and softer feeling is offset by slightly less force going into the track surface which is all that ultimately matters.
And to your point, if you bought the sub 3.30 guys of just the 80's into todays era (Cram, Aouita, Maree, Coe) they are all in the ballpark of 1.5 seconds quicker (basically half a second per lap to 1200m) at an absolute minimum.
You'd also see Ovett, Scott, Bile, Spivey, Abascal, Walker, Wessinhage, Bayi etc all under 3.30 and some of these names would also be under 3.29.0.
Back to Maree - if I remember correctly he was an absolute monster when it came to his mileage, never running anything much slower than 6's. This is a really cool T&F News article from 1981 written by Tom Jordan - (now former) meet director of Prefontaine for 37 years!
He was also a pathological liar. He rarely kept his word, and you could not believe anything he said.
It is not surprising that he is incarcerated.
He was a much better man than you could ever hope it be. And deep down inside you know it.
He served five years in prison for embezzling a million dollars from the national agency he was appointed head of, into his own bank account. It was intended to fund disadvantaged black South Africans trying to start their own businesses.
Is that your idea of a good person Hoady?
And your friend Passant believes Kenyans dominate distance running because they haven't evolved for a million years.
These are the people who repeatedly call me racist, and other low IQ imbeciles here then start to parrot.
He was a much better man than you could ever hope it be. And deep down inside you know it.
He served five years in prison for embezzling a million dollars from the national agency he was appointed head of, into his own bank account. It was intended to fund disadvantaged black South Africans trying to start their own businesses.
Is that your idea of a good person Hoady?
And your friend Passant believes Kenyans dominate distance running because they haven't evolved for a million years.
These are the people who repeatedly call me racist, and other low IQ imbeciles here then start to parrot.
Why the hell would anyone call you racist? You seem almost color blind. Race and skin color don’t matter to you at all. These are just haters. Some of your best friends are black people, am I right?
This race proves that supershoes are so utterly useless in the 1500. If guys are going through 400 in 53 in 1985 and finishing in 3:29, then no doubt with better pacing guys are running 3:26-3:27 today.
100%.
The only case you can make for "superspikes" helping over distances like the 800 and 1500m are on a training level - that potentially higher volume track workout athletes don't beat themselves up as much in better cushioned spikes hence maybe they can go slightly deeper in workouts and/or recovery time is shortened. Then again for athletes at this level, they are doing pretty well in workouts anyway and have elite powers of recovery to begin with. In terms of an actual race? Total net zero. The "smoother" ride and softer feeling is offset by slightly less force going into the track surface which is all that ultimately matters.
And to your point, if you bought the sub 3.30 guys of just the 80's into todays era (Cram, Aouita, Maree, Coe) they are all in the ballpark of 1.5 seconds quicker (basically half a second per lap to 1200m) at an absolute minimum.
You'd also see Ovett, Scott, Bile, Spivey, Abascal, Walker, Wessinhage, Bayi etc all under 3.30 and some of these names would also be under 3.29.0.
Back to Maree - if I remember correctly he was an absolute monster when it came to his mileage, never running anything much slower than 6's. This is a really cool T&F News article from 1981 written by Tom Jordan - (now former) meet director of Prefontaine for 37 years!
I agree. I wanted to highlight this particular race though because it seems to have been forgotten in the relics of race videos from that era. There were 5 sub 3:30's from that mid 1980's era. 2 from Aouita, 1 from Cram, 1 from Coe, and then obviously this one. What struck me though was the pacing. In that famous Nice race, both Cram and aouita went out in 55 mid I think? Aouita in his other 3:29 WR went out in more like 56-57 I think? Then Coe in that Rieti race runs 54 for the first lap, comparable to Maree here. But....Maree was 1:50.xx at 800 while Coe was 1:52 and Maree ends up running nearly the exact same time. Just a weird, one off race that is both perplexing and impressive at the same time. A comparable race that comes to mind was that Stockholm 3:31.95 by Coe where he went out in 52.xx - 1:49.xx for the first two laps. Those guys had so much more to give with more even pacing and I think it puts to rest the idea that shoes are worth as much as people think on this site.
Here is Jakob running a pretty similar race to what Coe and Maree ran without wavelights.
Since that race, Jakob has never run faster than 55.8-56 for the first lap in any of his PB races. He went under 55 in Paris 2024 (when he was likely at his peak ever fitness) and finished in 3:28.24.
This also shows how insane El G was, same opening laps but finishing in 3:26-3:27. With wavelights he has to be running 3:24-3:25 (Yes, he was likely to the gills too which seems supported by all this as well)
The only case you can make for "superspikes" helping over distances like the 800 and 1500m are on a training level - that potentially higher volume track workout athletes don't beat themselves up as much in better cushioned spikes hence maybe they can go slightly deeper in workouts and/or recovery time is shortened. Then again for athletes at this level, they are doing pretty well in workouts anyway and have elite powers of recovery to begin with. In terms of an actual race? Total net zero. The "smoother" ride and softer feeling is offset by slightly less force going into the track surface which is all that ultimately matters.
And to your point, if you bought the sub 3.30 guys of just the 80's into todays era (Cram, Aouita, Maree, Coe) they are all in the ballpark of 1.5 seconds quicker (basically half a second per lap to 1200m) at an absolute minimum.
You'd also see Ovett, Scott, Bile, Spivey, Abascal, Walker, Wessinhage, Bayi etc all under 3.30 and some of these names would also be under 3.29.0.
Back to Maree - if I remember correctly he was an absolute monster when it came to his mileage, never running anything much slower than 6's. This is a really cool T&F News article from 1981 written by Tom Jordan - (now former) meet director of Prefontaine for 37 years!
I agree. I wanted to highlight this particular race though because it seems to have been forgotten in the relics of race videos from that era. There were 5 sub 3:30's from that mid 1980's era. 2 from Aouita, 1 from Cram, 1 from Coe, and then obviously this one. What struck me though was the pacing. In that famous Nice race, both Cram and aouita went out in 55 mid I think? Aouita in his other 3:29 WR went out in more like 56-57 I think? Then Coe in that Rieti race runs 54 for the first lap, comparable to Maree here. But....Maree was 1:50.xx at 800 while Coe was 1:52 and Maree ends up running nearly the exact same time. Just a weird, one off race that is both perplexing and impressive at the same time. A comparable race that comes to mind was that Stockholm 3:31.95 by Coe where he went out in 52.xx - 1:49.xx for the first two laps. Those guys had so much more to give with more even pacing and I think it puts to rest the idea that shoes are worth as much as people think on this site.
Here is Jakob running a pretty similar race to what Coe and Maree ran without wavelights.
Since that race, Jakob has never run faster than 55.8-56 for the first lap in any of his PB races. He went under 55 in Paris 2024 (when he was likely at his peak ever fitness) and finished in 3:28.24.
This also shows how insane El G was, same opening laps but finishing in 3:26-3:27. With wavelights he has to be running 3:24-3:25 (Yes, he was likely to the gills too which seems supported by all this as well)
Great post, agree with it all.
Especially El Guerrouj and how we really took for granted what we were seeing at the time. The 2002 Rieti race is up there with Kipketer going 23.2/48.30 and somehow holding on to run 1.41.24 when he first broke Coes 800 mark.
26.4, 53.8 (27.4) and of course the famous 2.44.75 at 1200m before he absolutely melts with a 29.0 final 200m but still runs 3.26.96 - a time which only 2 men* (minus Kiprop) have run faster than and therefore only one man (Jakob) in the last 24 years has bettered.
No disrespect to Jakob, but I'm not sure what he would run if he went out in under 54 seconds. 3.28.4 in Paris off 54.8 but he did have to lead it. Still almost 7.5 meters up the track even with pacers, he might be lucky to run under 3.30 even in top shape off that blistering type of open.
That conclusion doesn't follow at alk! Both pacing and shoes may very well contribute. Besides - doping testing was rudimentary in 1985. No test for EPO before the 2000s.
Do you think the effects of super shoes can be seen in the depth of events like the 1500 and 800? Top level pros are running these times more consistently and there are more people than ever in the low 3:30s. I think pre-super shows some of these people were more like 3:33-35 talents.
He was also a pathological liar. He rarely kept his word, and you could not believe anything he said.
It is not surprising that he is incarcerated.
in 85, what would he have been taking exactly? in 81 Maree already had the goods, off the charts.
sure you could take testosterone back in the day, who could have been his brain trust for blood boosting? South Africa had no pedigree that I know of.
his progression did jump from 338 to 332 in one year, but that is after college, where he was in slow races.... it is very common to jump like that leaving college.
Maree gets no slander here without something called evidence of some kind.
That 329, is easily 327 and probably lower in the perfect race.
That conclusion doesn't follow at alk! Both pacing and shoes may very well contribute. Besides - doping testing was rudimentary in 1985. No test for EPO before the 2000s.
This race proves that supershoes are so utterly useless in the 1500. If guys are going through 400 in 53 in 1985 and finishing in 3:29, then no doubt with better pacing guys are running 3:26-3:27 today.
100%.
The only case you can make for "superspikes" helping over distances like the 800 and 1500m are on a training level - that potentially higher volume track workout athletes don't beat themselves up as much in better cushioned spikes hence maybe they can go slightly deeper in workouts and/or recovery time is shortened. Then again for athletes at this level, they are doing pretty well in workouts anyway and have elite powers of recovery to begin with. In terms of an actual race? Total net zero. The "smoother" ride and softer feeling is offset by slightly less force going into the track surface which is all that ultimately matters.
And to your point, if you bought the sub 3.30 guys of just the 80's into todays era (Cram, Aouita, Maree, Coe) they are all in the ballpark of 1.5 seconds quicker (basically half a second per lap to 1200m) at an absolute minimum.
You'd also see Ovett, Scott, Bile, Spivey, Abascal, Walker, Wessinhage, Bayi etc all under 3.30 and some of these names would also be under 3.29.0.
Back to Maree - if I remember correctly he was an absolute monster when it came to his mileage, never running anything much slower than 6's. This is a really cool T&F News article from 1981 written by Tom Jordan - (now former) meet director of Prefontaine for 37 years!