I'm nothing more than a decent hobbyjogger. 17 high 5k/37 mid 10k/1:22 mid half marathon. But in every single race, I always outkick the people around me at the finish. What I know this means is that I have way more to gain by training for the rest of the race than I do from training my kick, but is this also an indicator that I leave time from my current fitness on the table?
I remember my last 5k, I was already breathing hard at the mile mark and it felt like I was full throttle from the gun… around 2.5-ish miles, I consciously slowed down just a liiiittttlee bit because I was afraid I’d blow up. Only 2 or 3 people passed me during this slowdown period. About 300m from the finish line, I got my wind back and could have unleashed a ferocious kick to pass like 6 people, but I didn’t do it because I didn’t want to look like a show-off. In hindsight, I wish I did. I haven’t run a 5k since. 😞
I'm nothing more than a decent hobbyjogger. 17 high 5k/37 mid 10k/1:22 mid half marathon. But in every single race, I always outkick the people around me at the finish. What I know this means is that I have way more to gain by training for the rest of the race than I do from training my kick, but is this also an indicator that I leave time from my current fitness on the table?
I generally could outkick people at the same level. I put it down to being essentially a slow sprinter with a big V02 max.
I was on the heavier side for a distance runner at about 5' 9" and 150 lbs. On a session of 3 x 4 x 150m with the last 100m all out I would occasionally break 12:00. I also had fairly short strong legs.
What I did lack was good cruising speed, and could cross the wrong side of the LT threshold easily. I did run 8:45 3000m and 4:20 mile, both with a 60.xx last lap, but if I tried to run even pace for the same times, I'd blow up. Best 5k was 15:20 and best 10k 32:22, and in races over that distance, I would generally outkick people around me, even if I was struggling to hang on. It was basically switching to a different physiological system.
I'm nothing more than a decent hobbyjogger. 17 high 5k/37 mid 10k/1:22 mid half marathon. But in every single race, I always outkick the people around me at the finish. What I know this means is that I have way more to gain by training for the rest of the race than I do from training my kick, but is this also an indicator that I leave time from my current fitness on the table?
Most people are terrible at kicking. Running fast at the end of the race is hard and you need to build/learn good habits.
How many people do you know actual consciously pump their arms/dorsiflex their feet/relax when finishing?
Confound this with the fact that you're running against intermediate distance runners and you'll find that It'll be extremely rare to close against someone who can run a 30 second last 200m.
This post was edited 27 seconds after it was posted.
I've always wondered whether redlining too early or leaving too much gas in the tank leads to worse times.
Like say you have identical twin brothers and they are both in 4:00 minute 1600m shape. And say one of them runs 61, 61, 61 for the first three laps. And the other runs 59, 59, 59 for the first three laps. Which brother would end up winning?
I'm nothing more than a decent hobbyjogger. 17 high 5k/37 mid 10k/1:22 mid half marathon. But in every single race, I always outkick the people around me at the finish. What I know this means is that I have way more to gain by training for the rest of the race than I do from training my kick, but is this also an indicator that I leave time from my current fitness on the table?
I've had the same problem, so I think it's a real possibility, but it's also equally as likely that most people simply just go out too fast for their fitness and end up fading while trying to hold on. Even splitting already puts you ahead of the game compared to most people in XC and road races
This post was edited 51 seconds after it was posted.
I'm nothing more than a decent hobbyjogger. 17 high 5k/37 mid 10k/1:22 mid half marathon. But in every single race, I always outkick the people around me at the finish. What I know this means is that I have way more to gain by training for the rest of the race than I do from training my kick, but is this also an indicator that I leave time from my current fitness on the table?
This topic has me thinking about Alex Hutchinson's Endure. A few interesting tidbits in there on this topic: 1) professional rugby players doing a cycling time trial to exhaustion @ 240 watts/not knowing that after they hit exhaustion testers would ask them to sprint all-out after 5 seconds. they averaged 700+ watts. 2) case study on finishing kicks at ultra events like comrades. pretty much everyone is able to kick (obviously speeds are a lot slower) at the end of ultra races. 3) wall-sit tests. participants able to last longer when told they would get $8 for every 20s versus $.2 for every 20s.
Those anecdotes aside, you might just be more of a fast twitch runner. With your PBs, plenty of training tweaks could lead to improvement. Without more info, it's hard to say if you're underperforming relative to your training. What we do know is that most people speed up at the end of races and that you seem to do it better than those around you. These two things can be true & you can be on your limit. You can try to run differently in your next race off of the same fitness. In a 5k, try going out ~5s/mile quicker. See if that dampens your kick. But there's going to be a line where going out faster can result in time lost at the finish. Maybe you're more/less getting it right & you achieve your best results by closing hard.
Probably. Do you feel like you’ve been redlining the whole race, or are there certain points where you’ve consciously slowed down (even a little bit)?
It isn’t always the same there. My most recent race I only picked up the pace throughout it, but I've had some where I slightly fade and then have a big kick at the end.
I'm nothing more than a decent hobbyjogger. 17 high 5k/37 mid 10k/1:22 mid half marathon. But in every single race, I always outkick the people around me at the finish. What I know this means is that I have way more to gain by training for the rest of the race than I do from training my kick, but is this also an indicator that I leave time from my current fitness on the table?
1:22 Half LOL
Are those times not all pretty in line with each other?
How old are you versus the people you are running against? When I was 18-20 running 1:15 for a half was pretty hard, but I could kick the last 200m in 0:35. Now I’m 41 and running 1:15 is still fairly routine, but I don’t think I could run 0:35 even for an all out 200m on the track. If you are younger it’s easier to outkick people of similar ability.
Not neccesraily.. The ability to kick is more about being able to produce high forces with high fatigue present
Reaching the latter portion of the race with relatively lower fatigue will ofc result in a better kick.. But usually, guys with really good kicks just have fibers that are very anaerobic orianted they did not tap into until the latter part of the race.. those fibers would not last long anyway.. so they do not suggest that the individual could have neccesarily gone faster..
I'd recommend the pace gaps as a good indicator.. bigger gap would imply on the kick being more of a tapping into "faster" fibers thing.. also, how long is the kick? the shorter it is the more it presents as just tapping into those reserves..
To answer some questions, the kick is usually 200-400m, depending on when I see the finish and if I have a person right next to me or not. I closed a track 5k in a 78 second 400, and always see a pretty big peak at the end on my pace charts. I'm mid 20s and I've close races with guys close to my age/a couple years older, and guys significantly older
To answer some questions, the kick is usually 200-400m, depending on when I see the finish and if I have a person right next to me or not. I closed a track 5k in a 78 second 400, and always see a pretty big peak at the end on my pace charts. I'm mid 20s and I've close races with guys close to my age/a couple years older, and guys significantly older
Take a step back and look at the big picture. You're in your mid 20s, most men's peak, and running 17-high, a time that lots of teenagers hit in 1-2 seasons of XC. Don't overthink it, it's not like you're closing in sub-60. You want to push a little harder and drop a few seconds, fine, but you should just develop as a whole and not think of yourself as the next Cole Hocker with your big kick.
To answer some questions, the kick is usually 200-400m, depending on when I see the finish and if I have a person right next to me or not. I closed a track 5k in a 78 second 400, and always see a pretty big peak at the end on my pace charts. I'm mid 20s and I've close races with guys close to my age/a couple years older, and guys significantly older
Take a step back and look at the big picture. You're in your mid 20s, most men's peak, and running 17-high, a time that lots of teenagers hit in 1-2 seasons of XC. Don't overthink it, it's not like you're closing in sub-60. You want to push a little harder and drop a few seconds, fine, but you should just develop as a whole and not think of yourself as the next Cole Hocker with your big kick.
That's why I said I know I have more to gain by training the rest of the race. This is just me trying to figure out if I have a good kick for my level, or just leave too much on the table. Either way, focusing on the parts of the race before the kick makes more sense. I started late enough that I expect a peak in my late 20s or early 30s.
Take a step back and look at the big picture. You're in your mid 20s, most men's peak, and running 17-high, a time that lots of teenagers hit in 1-2 seasons of XC. Don't overthink it, it's not like you're closing in sub-60. You want to push a little harder and drop a few seconds, fine, but you should just develop as a whole and not think of yourself as the next Cole Hocker with your big kick.
That's why I said I know I have more to gain by training the rest of the race. This is just me trying to figure out if I have a good kick for my level, or just leave too much on the table. Either way, focusing on the parts of the race before the kick makes more sense. I started late enough that I expect a peak in my late 20s or early 30s.
I think it's probably mostly mental – you're likely more competitive and more willing to suffer. Running an all out 400m at the end of a 5k feels incredibly bad, and most people at that level either don't know they could endure it, or aren't willing to.
I think it's probably mostly mental – you're likely more competitive and more willing to suffer. Running an all out 400m at the end of a 5k feels incredibly bad, and most people at that level either don't know they could endure it, or aren't willing to.
I suspect this is correct. I always had the opposite problem--I had no kick at all, and anyone who was close to me with 200-400 m to go would outkick me to the finish. I think it was mostly just a matter of not being willing to suffer that much.
In most races from 5k to half, I usually run an even or slightly negative pace. I usually start from way back, and then keep passing everyone left and right until I get to the last 200m. Then, all of a sudden, some of the people I had just passed a few minutes ago find another gear and outkick me.
It means either they have more top end speed or they are not trying hard enough for the first 4.8km of the race.
It means to move up in the field you need to develop your speed side, so roughly speaking more reps at 3000m pace Some 600s 2’ w 400 walk would be a good start but some 400 80 on 2:30 would work also.