With how the sport has changed, it seems to me that doing 13-15 x Mile at MP with a short recovery is more specific training than sloggng about for 2+ hours.
Am I missing something? Is the long run just a tradition that people cannot break?
Tell us your understanding of the physiology: What adaptations should one be seeking, and what is the appropriate stimulus to produce those adaptations? How do they fit within the larger plan?
long distance runs are beneficial primarily for the aerobic/endurance benefit, and you get that whether you run at marathon pace or zone 1-2 HR. so better to run in zones 1-2 and save your legs for the next day's training and the next workout you have. it's the workouts where you want to run fast, 5k pace or less. marathon pace is junk miles. what are you getting running at marathon pace that you aren't getting running easy? not much. maybe you're working the exact muscle fibres that will be doing the bulk of the work on race day. maybe you're running with better form so your running economy might improve a little. possibly you might get more comfortable with the race pace feeling...
Nobody is saying to only do slow long runs in marathon training. Idk who you're talking to but most runners with serious time goals are aiming for something like 8-15 miles @ GMP in a lot of their key long runs. There's a time/place for an easy long run to build some strength/get in some time on your feet. Beginner runners, absolutely, just need to focus on getting in the mileage. Nothing wrong with that. Nobody is advocating that for everyone.
long distance runs are beneficial primarily for the aerobic/endurance benefit, and you get that whether you run at marathon pace or zone 1-2 HR. so better to run in zones 1-2 and save your legs for the next day's training and the next workout you have. it's the workouts where you want to run fast, 5k pace or less. marathon pace is junk miles. what are you getting running at marathon pace that you aren't getting running easy? not much. maybe you're working the exact muscle fibres that will be doing the bulk of the work on race day. maybe you're running with better form so your running economy might improve a little. possibly you might get more comfortable with the race pace feeling...
am i right LR? hit those vote buttons
I agree about workouts being important, and I agree that many runners overemphasize MP running when training for a marathon — most of them to their detriment. And some even try to get quality in all or nearly all of their long runs when they really don’t have the ability to handle that (better be fully in Hansons’ SOS mode for that, I guess?).
But faster than 5K pace in marathon training? Hardly any of that outside of strides and hill sprints (or is your “5k pace or less” going in a direction different from what I inferred, like v02max to sub-T?).
There is some analysis of Canova's training at and one of the big takeaways is that his runners only occasionally do long, slow runs. Instead, they do lots runs at 90-95% of MGP and focus on starting with the speed and building the endurance (rather than a lot of traditional marathon programs that would have you do slow long runs until you reach a certain distance and then start adding speed). I think the common-sense idea is that running closer to MGP better prepares you for actually racing a marathon and one physiological reason is that this is the pace you burn the most fat at (move slower and your energy needs are lower, move faster and you start using more carbs or glycogen is my very primitive understanding) and getting better at using fat as a fuel source is one of the primary adaptions you're trying to get when marathon training.
I think a training plan adapted from this philosophy would also be some long, slow runs to get used to being on your feet for a long time and what it does to your legs along with some longs runs with paces closer to MGP included.https://runningwritings.com/
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Doing a easy 2 hours easy is to prepare your body for those workouts of 13 to 15 miles at marathon pace. For example at the beginning of my marathon training cycle I'll start out doing easy 16 miles at 7:00 to 7:30 pace. After I get in shape I'll start adding more intensity during my long runs, peaking at 18 to 20 mile progression run where I'll end up averaging about 90% of my marathon pace.
With how the sport has changed, it seems to me that doing 13-15 x Mile at MP with a short recovery is more specific training than sloggng about for 2+ hours.
Am I missing something? Is the long run just a tradition that people cannot break?
All pieces of training have purpose. As a program progresses, the emphasis can shift.
Long, slow running, and volume in general, help with muscoskeletal adaptations. With an event like the marathon being so long, it also demands long training session. Long, slow runs help pave the way to be able to do the training necessary for good marathoning. I would argue that people undervalue the simple, now deemed “useless” training way too much.
Think of it as the training that allows you to “train”. Besides, if you don’t want a stress fracture from a ton of MP work, I really recommend having a foundation of some long, slow runs. 13-15x mile at MP, as you describe, is approaching two hours of running if you include warm up and cooldown. So again, get a foundation first before you go fast.
With how the sport has changed, it seems to me that doing 13-15 x Mile at MP with a short recovery is more specific training than sloggng about for 2+ hours.
Am I missing something? Is the long run just a tradition that people cannot break?
You only plan on doing one type of long run your entire build? Lmao come on man
With how the sport has changed, it seems to me that doing 13-15 x Mile at MP with a short recovery is more specific training than sloggng about for 2+ hours.
Am I missing something? Is the long run just a tradition that people cannot break?
You only plan on doing one type of long run your entire build? Lmao come on man
you can’t just run 15 miles at MP every week
No some weeks you do 10🤣 realistically if I never do a run longer than say 75 mins but I am doing 140mpw, will I do ok in the marathon? Probably. Thats a lot of running to built up the running body to run lots of distance. Is it more optimal than throwing in a few 2 hour runs? Who knows. I bet the difference would be. Hard to measure. And you would need a ton of self confidence.
maybe some guy who has been all in on the Bakken system with 20k long runs and who decided a to go 15k morning and night for easy days and all that threshold work decides that is how he running his first marathon.
Can’t speak to modern day and don’t run marathons any longer but when our group trained in the 1980s we did a Saturday long run of 20 to 22 miles at 20 to 30 seconds slower than marathon pace (5 to 5:30 per mile) and a Tuesday tempo repeat workout at faster than marathon pace with a 4 mile warmup and 2 mile cool down that added up to 12 to 14 miles. The rest of the week was recovering from to get ready for that Saturday long run
With how the sport has changed, it seems to me that doing 13-15 x Mile at MP with a short recovery is more specific training than sloggng about for 2+ hours.
Am I missing something? Is the long run just a tradition that people cannot break?
Easy long runs (just below the 1st ventilatory threshold) of 90 minutes or more improves fax oxidation (maximum fat oxidation) and that shifts your velocity curve to the right (faster) before you start burning more carbohydrate. This is also what L-carnatine does. Long slow distance also increases muscle capillary density. Long runs are also a good time to practice drinking fluids. Do a large volume threshold intervals session each week and a long slow run too, even combine the two on occasion as others has suggested. Alternate the combined session with a long slow run every week during build up, and not run a long run after any 10k [insert distance] tune-up races. You don't have to do a long slow run every week during build up, every other week should be fine.
Long slow runs increase the body's ability to use fat for fuel when glucose stores run low. They increase the number and efficiency of mitochondria--the tiny energy factories within your muscle cells. They increase capillary growth, increasing the amount of oxygen that can be carried to working muscles. They also serve a recovery function, as others have described.
The latter two adaptations occur AFTER the run is over and before your next run so the key is to figure out what the right "slow" pace is for you.