Why can't I run well in the 10K?

Must be a matter of race tactics. I race 10K more than any other distance, yet my 10K PR is statistically weaker than both 5K, Half, and Marathon. I know that I tend to go out too hard and I'm working on fixing that. I don't know if there are specific workouts that will help me but I've started to do my mile reps as cutdowns and tempo runs as progressive runs. Trying to condition the body to increasing the pace throughout the run or race. Also, I've stopped doing 5-6 striders right before race start and instead I do only 2 or 3 and I do them 15 mins out and then just relax, jog, and stretch until the gun. Some of this seems to have worked as I've gone out slower and finished stronger in my last 3 10Ks, and ran a 20-sec. PR last month.

Interesting. If you can run under 5 minute pace for 5K and can still split low 33 for a 10-miler, it's mental. Have you tried running 32:XX pace from the gun? Are you slowing down through 5-8K (as is often the case)?

I find that people who haven't been too successful at 10K expect to be significantly more relaxed than when they're running a 5K. This isn't the case, unfortunately. It's a matter of taking the pace down just slightly, so you're just under that threshold where it gets ugly really fast. This does not equate to relaxation. You're probably good for 32:XX - you're just inexperienced enough to know that splitting low 16s at 5K and starting to feel really bad doesn't mean that you're going to blow up. Just gotta have faith.

Take a look at that Cardinal Invite 10K. Does it look like those boys are relaxed? Not really. They're smooth and efficient, but they're still balls out the entire way. Nobody's gonna be too relaxed at 65 second pace.

er...that should be 'you're not experienced enough' instead of 'just inexperienced enough'

Well I would like to agree that its mental or tactics or something along those lines - and that is certainly entirely possible - but I also feel like I missing something physically. Let me explain:

When I run a ten miler at say 5:25 per mile I feel like a can race/compete off of that pace. That is I can surge for brief periods like around turns to break line of sight to the person behind me or at the crest of hills to open a gap on someone. As long as I settle back down to 5:25 in a few hundred yards I'm good to go and won't really slow down and will end up averaging like 5:23 or so per mile by races end.

Contrast that with my best 5k's which have always involved splits like 4:42, 4:58, 5:06. When I go out in 4:55 I still end up slowing to 5:05's by the end and my final time is about 10 seconds worse. I seem to have this little window at the beginning of a 5K were I can really hammer and it doesn't effect my 2nd and 3rd mile splits - they are always just under 5 and then ~5:05.

When I run 10K this 5k strategy doesn't work. If I go out in 4:50 I DNF. However, even splits don't seem to work either - if I go out in 5:05-5:10 (my projected 10K pace from Daniels) I end up running 5:30s by mile 4. Even starting conservative doesn't seem to work - if I go out in 5:15 I end up running 5:2Xhigh by mile 4. A couple of times I have averaged a slower pace for 10K than I had in recent half marathons because of those 5:30's for miles 4-5-6. I have similar difficulties with the 8K distance, but not quite as bad.

It almost seems to me like at 5:25 I am running with a totally different body than at 5:15. Further my body can't seem to tell much difference between a 4:50 and a 5:15 (but in a bad way in that they both really hard for me).

One last piece of info - I am slow. 4:35 mile on a great day. I can count on one hand the number of times I have run under 62 or so in the quarter.

Sorry if this thread sounds like a lot of complaining, but I am at my wits end with this.

I'd then suggest running lots of intervals somewhere between 5:05-5:15. Try 5 x mile at 5:10 with 2 minutes rest. Is that doable?

Of course you're not going to make it at 4:50 - that's 30:20 pace. Sounds to me like your lactate threshold is where you're most lacking. How are your tempo runs? What do you run those at?

I would agree with Calgarian. Not knowing your training at all, could a potential problem be that you're running your intervals at 5:20 mile pace whereas you don't do any intervals at 5:05-5:10 (ie. 10km) pace? It's entirely possible that you haven't developed the economy at 10km pace that you have at 15km. Just a hunch, again, not knowing your training at all.

Also, it could be an issue of lactate tolerance. In a 15km or 10 miler, you're running just above LT, so if you were to plot your lactate curve, it would be relatively flat. In a 5km or 10km, you're running way above the LT and the lactate curve is steeper (ie. more exponential).

Let's hypothesize your max lactate concentration is 8-10mM. In a 5km, the race will be over by the time you hit 8-10mM; however, in a 10km, you're going to hit your max lactate somewhere around 7-8km, for example, and you blow up. This won't be an issue in a 15km because you won't hit 8-10mM because the lactate curve at this pace is shallower.

My hypothesis is it's a combination of a) being economical at 10km race pace and b)learning to go out a bit slower and more even to keep that lactate curve relatively shallow.

If you really want to find out, go into a lab and get an experienced technician measure your VO2 at 5km, 10km and 15km paces, as well as running some steady state tests at those paces, measuring lactates as you go in order to get a good profile of your lactate curves at 5km, 10km and 15km paces.

I hope this helps a bit. Again, I'm just hypothesizing since we don't know anything about your training.

fletch

Maybe your worrying about your splits too much. I know it sounds odd. Enter a race and don't wear a watch. Run by feel.

OK, well now I'm really convinced that you should do cut-down on your mile reps and do more progression runs. On your next 5-mile tempo run, start at 5:30 and finish at 5:10-5:15. From what you're describing that should be a pretty hard workout initially.

Evil wrote:

Maybe your worrying about your splits too much. I know it sounds odd. Enter a race and don't wear a watch. Run by feel.

This is bad advice. There seems to be a very specific problem, and it has a specific solution.

If I were in his shoes, in my week I'd be including 4-5 x mile in 5:00-5:05 and a tempo run of 4 miles at 5:15. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to run 32:15-32:30 off that.

I always hesitate to post training info on here but, I'm going against my better judgement and I'll put in my 2 cents worth anyway:

I had an athlete that ran for me for four years and her first 3 we seemed to have the same problem (NAIA school). For her senior year, in her training, we quit doing the traditional "High mileage for the first 2 months, gradually dropping volume and adding intensity" program and kept her volume at a relatively high level for the entire season and really focused on doing lots of interval work at 10k pace or tempo pace. She had NO speed and on a good day would MAYBE run a 5 flat 1500. But, she had great endurance and so we really focused on that for 2 reasons: 1. anything in the 70s for, say a 400m repeat was really hard on her because of her lack of speed so 2. we focused on building her strength for the entire year and only really doing "speed" when she did strides before workouts, after easy runs and before races. We didn't totally neglect leg speed because with all the strides she was doing 2-2.5 miles of 1500m pace or faster every week but, we just didn't focus on it.

The result was she dropped her 10k time by over 90 seconds from one year to the next. I did this training with some athletes after she graduated and had success with them as well. I wish I could say I came up with this on my own but Joe Rubio was the one who came up with the idea. When this athlete was a freshman she ran 21:50 for XC 5k and her sophmore year ran a 41 min. 10k. Her senior year she ran low 18s (and would've been mid 17s if we'd have ever had her in a fast 5k) and 37:29 for 10k. Just some thoughts for you. Good luck with your racing.

Calgarian wrote:

Evil wrote:

Maybe your worrying about your splits too much. I know it sounds odd. Enter a race and don't wear a watch. Run by feel.

This is bad advice. There seems to be a very specific problem, and it has a specific solution.

If I were in his shoes, in my week I'd be including 4-5 x mile in 5:00-5:05 and a tempo run of 4 miles at 5:15. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to run 32:15-32:30 off that.

No, Evil's advice is actually very good! Maybe you're not running relaxed at 10K, and trying to force it? If you run by feel and don't get caught up in time, you're more likely to run relaxed and may even go through 5K at close to your 5K PR. I agree about setting an interval pace that is at your goal 10K race pace (you'll instinctively learn what the pace feels like). Then, when it comes race time, instead of taking off like a bat out of hell, hold back a little, relax, and go by feel-- most likely you'll be hitting the pace right on. It should feel easy.

I think both ideas are good. Incorporate 10km pace stuff into your workouts (4-6 x mile, 4 mile tempos) or something similar. Do that once a week for a few weeks. Then get in the race, take the watch off and run them as if you were doing a workout. You should feel really comfortable for the first 2-3 miles, uncomfortable for the middle couple then dig in for the last mile or so - just like the intervals would feel.

Listen to Webb's interview after his Stanford 10km. He said something along the lines of "I was hurting real bad after 6km but once I saw I had under 3km to go, I knew I'd be alright".

fletch