Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
In overall mid-distance terms, you can make a strong argument than Ing has already eclipsed El G. I'd probably agree. i 1500, i mile, 2000, 3000, 2 mile WRs/WBs and faster times in everything indoor and everything over a mile outdoor. Already has equaled his Olympic golds in 1500, 5000 and just matched 3000 indoor WC.
However in terms of sheer 1500 m/mile performance...no. El G won something like 6 world championships in 1500 I think, 2-3 indoor and 3-4 outdoor. Ing just got #1. Plus El G had something crazy like 7 or 8 of top 1500 and mile times ever run when he retired and he still has 4-5 of top 10 in each I think like 25-30 years on.
So...in terms of sheer dominance and staying power...for pure 1500 m/mile...I probably still say El G. I'm rooting for Ing for break 1500/mile/5000 WRs, though.
He will also need a WR in an Olympic event (1500m or 5000m), the 10,000m Olympic Gold, and a World Cross Gold if he really wants to lock down the Ultimate-GOAT status.
I am a huge Jakob Fan, but without a WR, he runs the risk of being someone like Mo Farah who had a million medals but zero real world records.
p.s. I personally consider his 7:17 3K among the best records in our sport, but a lot of the haters here need it to be the 1500m before they'll stop hating...
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
I believe El G was 7-3 in 1500m championship finals.
Jakob is 2-5 after this win. Pretty sure that ship has sailed.
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Well he's going to win the 5000m unless either Fisher, Aregawi or Gebrhiwet can channel the ghosts of either Komen or Bekele and take it to him in the last 2000m like he's never experienced before. The thing is, I don't see that happening. The 5000m still seems like a massive unknown in terms of a time/his PR because where is he going to go for it and is he going to go for the WR in what would basically be his first actual attempt at a fast 5000?
So it's all about the 1500m this year and what happens. I haven't really shifted on my opinion re his potential which is I think he can break 3.27.0 again and get close to running under 3.26.5 - but 3.25.X is a little bit too far. I do think he can win the world title though - he's experienced enough in 3 global losses to I think know by now how he is going to do that without someone pacing him to 1350m in an empty stadium like Tokyo in 2021.
Tough to match El G purely as a 1500m/miler. Really he needs both WR's there and at least the world title this year and in Beijing but even then that's tough. El G finished his career with a gold and silver from the OG's (I don't know if Jakob will even match this) a world silver and 4 straight golds.
I also don't think we can/should lump El G in as a 5000m guy. He cared about it for 2 seasons and in that tiny window he ran 12.50 in his only attempt at a time, gained a silver from the worlds and a gold from the Olympics and most importantly he beat Bekele in both of those races who is arguably still the 5000m GOAT and was the WR holder in Athens.
Paris hurt his legacy a lot - fairly or unfairly. He had gone back to back there and pulled off the double this could really be a different conversation.
I don’t know that he needs all of that, but I agree he’s still got a lot of work to do. Winning Paris regardless of the 5k outcome would have gone a long way. I don’t think he’ll match ElG’s medal count. So if he’s going to surpass ElG he’s got to do things ElG didn’t; that is, he *needs* both the 1500m and mile records. A second OG gold would also do a lot. I’m in the camp that 2 OG golds is worth more than 1 OG gold and literally any number of WC golds. WC’s is a tiebreaker for when the OG accolades are equal.
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Well he's going to win the 5000m unless either Fisher, Aregawi or Gebrhiwet can channel the ghosts of either Komen or Bekele and take it to him in the last 2000m like he's never experienced before. The thing is, I don't see that happening. The 5000m still seems like a massive unknown in terms of a time/his PR because where is he going to go for it and is he going to go for the WR in what would basically be his first actual attempt at a fast 5000?
So it's all about the 1500m this year and what happens. I haven't really shifted on my opinion re his potential which is I think he can break 3.27.0 again and get close to running under 3.26.5 - but 3.25.X is a little bit too far. I do think he can win the world title though - he's experienced enough in 3 global losses to I think know by now how he is going to do that without someone pacing him to 1350m in an empty stadium like Tokyo in 2021.
Tough to match El G purely as a 1500m/miler. Really he needs both WR's there and at least the world title this year and in Beijing but even then that's tough. El G finished his career with a gold and silver from the OG's (I don't know if Jakob will even match this) a world silver and 4 straight golds.
I also don't think we can/should lump El G in as a 5000m guy. He cared about it for 2 seasons and in that tiny window he ran 12.50 in his only attempt at a time, gained a silver from the worlds and a gold from the Olympics and most importantly he beat Bekele in both of those races who is arguably still the 5000m GOAT and was the WR holder in Athens.
Paris hurt his legacy a lot - fairly or unfairly. He had gone back to back there and pulled off the double this could really be a different conversation.
I really don't see why there needs to be all these comparisons between athletes all the time. Trying to compare athletes who have never raced each other and have lived in completely different eras is absurd to me. If the fields are completely different, why should we compare the accolades in medals from two athletes?
You could argue that the field right now in the 1500 is the strongest it has ever been with 4 guys running an Olympic record in Paris, and therefore not winning gold there doesn't make you worse than El Guerrouj (who by the way only won 1 Olympic gold in the 1500, which is the same as Ingebrigtsen as of today). Also, Ingebrigtsen's career is far from over (hopefully) and he may (or may not) win other championships before his time is over.
The only thing we could compare are times, but again circumstances vary a lot. Some may argue there is better technology and equipment today so it is easier to run faster. Regardless of technology or not, human species are meant to evolve over time and achieve new heights, either because of talent, drive, professionalism in training, nutrition or technology. But in the end time is a deterministic thing, 3:26.00 was the same 25 years ago and it is the same now, so if we are to compare both runners Jakob has a better PB in all the events except for the outdoors 1500 and mile. And agian, this doesn't make him better or worse, it just makes him to be him.
All I would say about Ingebrigtsen is that he is the most versatile runner in the field today and he is in every conversation. He also is the most influential runner as he determines the way in which every race is being run and the rest of the athletes are just observing what he does and try to respond as best as they can to it. Some of them end up beating him, most don't. But all of them have high respect for him as he is the main voice in mid-distance and distance events.
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Because El Guerrouj, when not tripped, never missed out on a medal when he was -5000 odds to medal? Put prime El Guerrouj in a 2020s championship race and he wins 95% of the time - you obviously can’t drop him with a fast pace, nor can you out kick him off a fast pace either
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Well he's going to win the 5000m unless either Fisher, Aregawi or Gebrhiwet can channel the ghosts of either Komen or Bekele and take it to him in the last 2000m like he's never experienced before. The thing is, I don't see that happening. The 5000m still seems like a massive unknown in terms of a time/his PR because where is he going to go for it and is he going to go for the WR in what would basically be his first actual attempt at a fast 5000?
So it's all about the 1500m this year and what happens. I haven't really shifted on my opinion re his potential which is I think he can break 3.27.0 again and get close to running under 3.26.5 - but 3.25.X is a little bit too far. I do think he can win the world title though - he's experienced enough in 3 global losses to I think know by now how he is going to do that without someone pacing him to 1350m in an empty stadium like Tokyo in 2021.
Tough to match El G purely as a 1500m/miler. Really he needs both WR's there and at least the world title this year and in Beijing but even then that's tough. El G finished his career with a gold and silver from the OG's (I don't know if Jakob will even match this) a world silver and 4 straight golds.
I also don't think we can/should lump El G in as a 5000m guy. He cared about it for 2 seasons and in that tiny window he ran 12.50 in his only attempt at a time, gained a silver from the worlds and a gold from the Olympics and most importantly he beat Bekele in both of those races who is arguably still the 5000m GOAT and was the WR holder in Athens.
Paris hurt his legacy a lot - fairly or unfairly. He had gone back to back there and pulled off the double this could really be a different conversation.
I meant in terms of 1500/5000m greatness. Nobody will ever surpass El Guerrouj just as a 1500m runner, I agree with you on that.
It seems pretty ridiculous to not lump in El G as a 5000m guy. He had the opportunity to contest it in 1997, 1999, and possibly 2001. He also won an indoor 3000m title. I guess we will just forget about Jakob’s 5000m titles….what? If El G was not a 5000m or a 1500/5000m guy, then how was he capable of beating Bekele. I think you’re contradicting yourself.
In my mind, they both have the same Olympic Golds, and by next year’s time, may possibly have the same # of world championship golds which is the subject of my post. That plus a WR in the 15 or 5000m…what argument is there against him matching El G? Longevity? Difficulty of competition? (I think Jakob has faced more difficult fields in the WC 5000m), His longstanding records? His Indoor WC golds (I could see these as a counterpoint).
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
I meant as a 1500/5000m runner which I thought was obvious in my OP. If he wins the 5000m again that’s 3 straight. If he wins the double that’s already matching El G gold count.
I meant as a 1500/5000m runner which I thought was obvious in my OP. If he wins the 5000m again that’s 3 straight. If he wins the double that’s already matching El G gold count.
Fair enough, and then I’d actually say he doesn’t need to win an outdoor Worlds 1500 to equal or surpass El G as a dual 1500/5k runner, if you want to make that its own category. This year alone, he could run a 3:42.9 WR, win silver or bronze in the 1500, and win another 5k gold, and he’d have done the job, since both his 1500/mile and 5k resumes would be wayyy better than El Guerrouj’s 5k resume. I would stipulate that being the “dual 1500/5k GOAT” is different and more easily achievable for Jakob than surpassing El Guerrouj on a list of overall middle and long distance runners, IMO.
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Because El Guerrouj, when not tripped, never missed out on a medal when he was -5000 odds to medal? Put prime El Guerrouj in a 2020s championship race and he wins 95% of the time - you obviously can’t drop him with a fast pace, nor can you out kick him off a fast pace either
Um….didn’t he trip and get last in a final he 100% had high odds to medal in?
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
Well he's going to win the 5000m unless either Fisher, Aregawi or Gebrhiwet can channel the ghosts of either Komen or Bekele and take it to him in the last 2000m like he's never experienced before. The thing is, I don't see that happening. The 5000m still seems like a massive unknown in terms of a time/his PR because where is he going to go for it and is he going to go for the WR in what would basically be his first actual attempt at a fast 5000?
So it's all about the 1500m this year and what happens. I haven't really shifted on my opinion re his potential which is I think he can break 3.27.0 again and get close to running under 3.26.5 - but 3.25.X is a little bit too far. I do think he can win the world title though - he's experienced enough in 3 global losses to I think know by now how he is going to do that without someone pacing him to 1350m in an empty stadium like Tokyo in 2021.
Tough to match El G purely as a 1500m/miler. Really he needs both WR's there and at least the world title this year and in Beijing but even then that's tough. El G finished his career with a gold and silver from the OG's (I don't know if Jakob will even match this) a world silver and 4 straight golds.
I also don't think we can/should lump El G in as a 5000m guy. He cared about it for 2 seasons and in that tiny window he ran 12.50 in his only attempt at a time, gained a silver from the worlds and a gold from the Olympics and most importantly he beat Bekele in both of those races who is arguably still the 5000m GOAT and was the WR holder in Athens.
Paris hurt his legacy a lot - fairly or unfairly. He had gone back to back there and pulled off the double this could really be a different conversation.
It's very telling how good Jakob is when you have people saying it hurt his legacy to not win the 1500 at Paris at age 23, when a single man in history has won the 1500 Olympic gold more than once.
I really don't see why there needs to be all these comparisons between athletes all the time. Trying to compare athletes who have never raced each other and have lived in completely different eras is absurd to me. If the fields are completely different, why should we compare the accolades in medals from two athletes?
Because it's fun to dream about it and we do it in every sport with the greats. Why should running be any different? Btw, he himself has stated his goals of being the greatest ever so even he is interested in "comparisons between athletes" and he is including himself.
Is it logical or rational? No it's not but most people recognize that - it doesn't make it "absurd" at all. Relax.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
It's very telling how good Jakob is when you have people saying it hurt his legacy to not win the 1500 at Paris at age 23, when a single man in history has won the 1500 Olympic gold more than once.
Absolutely. He is already one of the all time greats - the greatest of this generation and one of the best runners in history. And he is ambitious enough to say he wants to be the greatest ever so it all becomes part of it.
Once he completes the double this summer or atleast wins the 1500m, and sets a WR in either the 1500 or 5000m, I don’t see anyway how he hasn’t matched Hicham El Guerrouj.
He needs my mile WR and 1500m WR. Not by a measly .2 or .3. But enough to account for technology. 3:25.00 3:42.00