Do you really need to do VO2 max during the race-specific phase of marathon training?

People way overthink this. Just run as many miles as you can handle, throw in an interval session once a week and run the effin’ race.

Are you doing a pfitz plan? Switching the LT and vo2 workouts is a pretty common and reasonable adjustment, as is breaking up the tempo runs a bit. The above posters is kind of right imo, the exact workout design is not the key aspect of pfitz plans, it's getting super comfortable grinding out those endurance paced runs on tired legs

If you haven't done any vo2 work in a long time I recommend keeping one or two in there, it does seem to unlock another gear for me. You can make them easier to reduce the risk though. 12x400m or 6x800m aren't bad to jump into

Yeah agree I don't do the late VO2 reps in a Pfitz plan if that's what you're looking at. It feels weird to be never hitting that stuff & then using it to sharpen. I don't think it's a horrible idea. Maybe just be on the conservative side with paces for something like that. You see that model in plenty of endurance sports like swimming/biking. That's how a lot of plans have you peaking. I'm not sure you really need it for the marathon. I'll touch on some speed early in a marathon build but like you said OP I'm generally hitting mostly threshold-MP work in the last 8 weeks or so. Speed is more of a limiter in a marathon build. It'll be hard to run X time if you haven't run the prerequisite 5k time for it. It'll be hard to try to improve speed while in a marathon build. You don't have this problem. I do think there are easy ways to get some turnover in. Strides a couple of times/week. You can even do them as slightly longer 30s-60s reps. I think it was Rupp who was doing 7x300 in his marathon builds weekly or every other week. Well, do 5-6 x 60s on/off every so often at the end of an easy run. It's not a full workout that you'll need to seriously recover from. It shouldn't increase injury risk. Every 3-4 weeks in a 12 week build I will do something around 10k pace. That's all I feel like I need for "speed."

No need for VO2 Max in your marathon specific phase, which is more appropriate for distances up to 10k. If you're able to hit VO2 max intervals in your marathon specific phase, your phase is not sufficiently specific to the marathon.

LT clearing workouts are a better choice, where you run close to your threshold and then back off to run marathon pace. For example, 1k @ LT +5 seconds followed by 1k @ MP +5s, for 10k total. That will teach your body to function the way you need it to for the marathon.

There are lots of LT clearing variations out there. Go try them instead of VO2 Max!

What do you mean by "lactate clearing"?

Marathon pace is well below ventilatory threshold, so lactate doesn't accumulate.

I think you should hit it every 2 weeks or so. And it doesn’t have to be crazy hard. Could just be 6x800 or 3xmile. Your hardest workouts should be those specific to the marathon. You can also throw in a few reps in a marathon workout. You could be doing 2mi repeats at marathon pace and throw in a couple 800-1600 repeats at 5k-3k pace.

This. This is what I was trying to convey in my original post, thx for articulating it this way.

For example, doing 5-6 x 1k @ 5k pace was my biggest workout leading up to my 5k PR, but Pfitz has it in the last couple weeks before the taper.

I just can’t wrap my head around/reconcile getting specific for a marathon but yet doing it with a workout that I’ve always considered to be the top of the mountain in a 5k specific build. How can they both co-exist?? But who am I right. Obviously he knows more about marathon training than I do, as a fairly new to running middle ager.

I like this, almost like doing VO2 max workouts in base phase, nothing too crazy.

It’s the 6x800 @5k pace or 5x1k that would make me nervous. But can you imagine what massive 5k shape you’d be in? With all the mileage and long runs, AND hitting massive 5k specific sessions??? 17:xx here I come

not what you asked, but I think you have sub 3 in you. I have slower times in half (1:28) and 5k (19:13) , and just missed 3 in Boston this year. (3:00:42). I say go for sub 3

not true. It's generally just not the limiting factor and there is hardly any anaerboic energy contribution and significant blood PH drop. People generally "fail" in the marathon because of sheer muscle failure (cramps), glycogen depletion (hitting the wall), and other things like dehydration and GI issues etc. Those who have a velocity at Lactate Threshold that is relatively closer to their velocity at Vo2max tend to race better at the longer distances like the marathon....even if their sheer Vo2max number is actually lower!

I'd say it depends on the runner (their background, weekly mileage, what they've been doing the past 6 months and their relative strengths and weaknesses and relative speed)...on whether or not "Vo2max style intervals" should be used in a marathon build.

Generally marathon training "speed sessions" are not so much for pure Vo2max boosting but rather to boost specific Running Economy. Raw Vo2max might actually drop relative to gains in specific running economy. So 5km-10km pace work to make marathon pace feel more smooth....but maybe it's only 94-97% of max HR....(and pretty high volume sessions like 10 x 1km). Maybe it's more CV intensity.

Most people generally need more Lactate Threshold/Tempo Run sessions (long intervals) and quality Long Run sessions though as it's the stamina/endurance/strength that fails in the marathon (relative to your Half or 5km/10km PRs).

But for "leg turn-over" and working at a gear more intense than the Lactate Threshold there are a lot of aerobic benefits, running mechanics (FT muscle fiber stimulation) that can boost Running Economy.

Hence why at least a few "Vo2max kind of interval workouts" during a marathon training plan can be very beneficial to reach your full potential in the marathon.

Mostly agree but the alleged negative correlation between VO2max and running economy is just an artifact of selection bias in the small studies that have been done on it. When you select for people at a certain level of performance, you automatically exclude those who have a low running economy + a low VO2max. And by doing so, you induce a spurious negative correlation between VO2max and economy.

Yeah my 5k and HM are def better relative to my marathons, according to the equivalency tables. Had a big breakthrough last year getting down to 3:10 mid, just missed a BQ, but then they changed the BQ standards and now gotta run 3:05. Still looking for my first BQ after 5 marathons. Will need a 5 minute PR. Sub 3 seems out of reach, but thx for the vote of confidence

Thanks for your response, Sage! Interesting hearing that there are aerobic benefits and improvements in running economy that can come from VO2 max type workouts. I’ll definitely add some not too grueling sessions into this race specific phase I just started.

To some degree, yes, but there is a reason why a 70 Vo2max is more efficient than an 80 VO2max on running and vice versa in cycling.

I think Sage is old school. Modern marathon training methods are much more event specific.

I don't think you need to.

You can maintain power, while boosting your lactate threshold and mechanical effiiciency by doing short threshold intervals (lots of people call them "cruise intervals").

It makes it much easier to get a bigger volume workout in too, and to keep your mileage high, as there's much less recovery time compared to a vo2 max workout.

Try something like 10 x 3' at somewhere between 10k-HM pace, with a 60-70" static recovery. The static recovery will allow your HR and lactate levels to drop enough to keep the intensity relatively low, so that you can get in more work (at a faster pace), and will reduce the recovery time to your next workout.

In the specific phase, you don't want to waste a hard workout on something that isn't marathon specific, so just tick the box on anything that isn't.

This is essentially what Rogers did circa 1975. 130 miles a week with an occasional 800 or mile repeat sesh.

The main change I’ve seen is to add marathon paced miles to long runs. Debatable whether this makes a difference.

The current Australian marathon record holder is about a minute faster than the old school guys who ran on 💩 shoes.

Connor Mantz & Clayton Young often do a session that resembles Yasso 800s 10-14 days before a marathon. Typically 8 800s starting at 2:08 and working down to 2:04. I think you can overdo it, but I think it’s a valuable test to try some version of that 2-3 times in a marathon cycle. If you can’t do anything like 6-8 800s at your MP-equivalent, MP is gonna feel awfully fast on race day around 15 miles.