Marathon Disaster - Thoughts?

First stop messing with Pfitz. If you're going to do that plan, do it as-is.

Why are doing 24-mile long runs.

Taper mileages seems high. Pfitz is 46 and 30 miles, far lower than your mileage.

Was there a major difference in your training conditions and race conditions? Was the marathon hilly but most of your running was on a flat treadmill? What about the temperature?

Based on what you've given here, I think you were either (1) not sufficiently recovered or (2) didn't prepare for the actual course conditions.

Or you tapered too much. I'm just a stupid hobbyjogger so I don't know much but for my body specifically dropping mileage by that much just absolutely kills my fitness. It's as if my body gets the wrong signal.

Yes, I did feel stale even at race pace. Perhaps a 4 day drop in volume before the race would serve me better next time.

I just looked back, and my first 12 miles were SLOWER than my 12 mile MP during training.

The 24 miler is in the pfitz 18/85 plan.

Regarding the course, I live in a hilly area, but drove to flat terrain to mimic course conditions on long runs. I also did all my intensity on a flat loop except when hill sprints were called for.

Really at a loss on this one...

Hard to know for sure. I would get your serum ferritin tested to see if that’s an issue. That’s more of a taper than I would do personally. I tend to underperform if I taper for more than a week or so. Not sure if that’s the issue, either. What was you HR on the 24 miler relative to your race?

Might be worth getting a blood test or possibly you were just low grade sick

something ain't right here

"new to running this year (coming from a cycling background)"

so within months of getting into running you were averaging 70mpw? then after you first marathon put in 90mpw for the next 6 months? if true, your durability is pretty insane man

either way, that taper you did was ill-advised to say the least: 90mpw --> 60mpw --> 40mpw with speed workouts looks like you're getting ready to spike up for an 800 not a marathon

You nailed it with your analysis at the end. You overdid it. That doesn't seem like much of a taper. If you're only going to taper for 2 weeks, you gotta take the taper seriously. Also, 85 miles might be too much, especially with the extra speedwork you threw in. Based on your previous PR, I'd follow the 70 mile week plan. I know that seems counterintuitive but you're not going to get better physiologically unless you are adequately rested (speaking from years and years of overdoing it). I'm on the 70 mpw plan and shooting for a 2:40.

And finally, if you're going to follow Pfitz, follow Pfitz. His plan works if you include the mid week long run as it's meant to be run. Don't incorporate extra speedwork because of insecurity about your fitness. The speed will come with the aerobic devopment that comes with the mileage and the speedwork in the plan.

The 24 miler was 7:14 min/mile at 151 bpm, and the marathon was 7:07 min/mile at 157 bpm.

Could be. Also have had a lot of work stress lately.

I used to be a runner in 2022, then got hurt and took a 16 month break from running. I also do weights 3x a week, which I've found has definitely help niggles from becoming bad injuries.

I 100% agree in hindsight. During my last marathon build, I didn't really do any speed work on the plan I followed and mostly did aerobic runs at around 8 min/mile. I did run 20 miles basically every Sunday too. Low and behold on race day with the same taper I just did (60, then 40 miles), I ran 6:47 min/mile on a hillier course than my Marathon debacle.

Lower volume would also allow me to get more out of my speed workouts, right? I think that would develop my top end more and keep my legs from burning out at MP so easily.

My bad, I was looking at the 18/70 template. Never did the 18/85 plan. It's hard to go against pfitz but I do question some of those long runs on that mileage.

Wonder if you actually would've had better results off the 70 mile plan (following it as written). While you were able to muscle through and survive the 85 plan, it may have simply caused too much accumulated fatigue that couldn't be cleared with your 2-week relatively high mileage taper, especially with the added workouts.

Good luck.

ok that makes a lot more sense than "i'm new to running this year"

anyway, i would still bet your life that the taper nuked your fitness

Thanks. I'll try the 70 miler during the next build and see how that goes. Before that, it's time for a few weeks of R&R.

Would you say that I should have pulled back less OR done a 3 week taper?

Agree with the other posters. It's worth getting a blood test and physical, but you probably overtrained and didn't taper enough. Anytime my legs blow it's almost always overtraining and insufficient rest. More mileage isn't necessarily better as you personally found out - you ran a 2:58 off of 70mpw and a 3:08 off of 90mpw... so going back to your previous plan should be a start.

My advice: stick to Pfitz 18/70 and don't deviate. There's no reason to be using the 18/85 plan at your paces and race goals, let alone a modified higher-octane version of it. I ran a 2:48 off of Pfitz 18/55. I know guys in my club who ran 2:31-2:33 off of 60-70mpw...

I actually find the 18/85 plan to be kind of an odd duck. Too high mileage for most good non-pro times, but not difficult enough for sub-elite let alone elite times.

Thank you for the advice.

I guess this wasn't all for a loss. I definitely learned what my "ideal" level of mileage is and still built some fitness in this build. Just didn't have the form on race day :(

Live to fight another day.

should have pulled back WAY less