Training for top speed and endurance concurrently

Look into the Hobbs Kessler/ Bryce Hoppel approach! I don’t know if the specifics are very available publicly, but It pretty much looks like

1 weekly top end speed session

2 weekly double threshold sessions

1 weekly race specific session (hoppel might do 6x300m, while Kessler might do 10x400m)

And daily easy mileage varies between 10-14 miles in doubles.

Kessler has improved A TON in the 800m using this approach, and Hoppel has also made the huge leap from 1:43 to 1:41 using this approach, which goes to tell me it’s probably effective at developing raw speed and speed economy.

If you don’t want to dedicate 3-4 hours of your day to running like they do it could look something like

Monday: 6x flying 50s, 3x150m, OR 6x50-100m hills with full rest, with a longer cooldown or an easy double

Tuesday: AM 5x4:00 off of 2:00 jogging rest, PM 30 minutes of 1 minute on, 1 minute off, OR just do a single threshold session of 6x5:00

Wednesday: 6-10 mile recovery run depending on mileage goals

Thursday: 5x3:00 @Vo2Max off of 3:00 jogging recovery, + 6x200m @1000m pace

Friday: 6-10 mile recovery run

Saturday: 3x10 minutes @threshold or 20 minutes @threshold

Sunday: 4-6 mile easy run and/or cross train for 30 minutes to an hour.

If you have the tendency to overcook your threshold work and run too fast, this schedule will cook you so make sure to play it safe if you choose to do something like this, threshold days should feel moderate not hard.

Start with a cycle of endurance around 8-10 weeks, switch to up to 4 weeks of speed related, then follow this approach until your required races

thanks so much. are there any references i can use for hoppel/kessler's training? i assume it's mainly the same norwegian-inspired threshold workouts combined with pure speed training?

wouldn't the 10 weeks offset the 4 weeks of speed training? or is that a necessary evil to train both

It’s kind of been an adventure trying to find more information and piece it all together.

If you go looking on youtube, you can find a few videos of them working out together, and both of them explaining aspects of their training in podcast style/ pre or post race interviews. I unfortunately don’t remember too many specifics on video titles or where in the videos there’s actual relevant information.

I think I will be adopting the training approach and giving the 800/1500/3000 one more good, serious, effort before I kind of move on with my life and embrace the “has been weekend warrior” runner trope. Meaning I trust it enough to be the training behind my last hurrah.

Sorry responded to the wrong post. The perks of being half asleep and posting on letsrun

what do you mean by "base building"?

Make sure that you have a good physio on speed dial with this approach

This is awesome. There is a lot of quality in here so would be cautious about doing it every week & would adjust to your level.

The key with that Monday is that it doesn't have to have a ton of volume (& shouldn't). You can also stick stuff in like the 6x200m at the end of the VO2 work.

It also depends what you mean by endurance. Are you going to run the 5k or a marathon? Either way you modify to your needs. Even marathoners should stick something short in like 7-8 x 300 or 6-8 x 400 every few weeks. You don't have to go crazy with the volume but the turnover will help the paces for the longer distances feel more relaxed.

Of course you can work on and develop both. The question I think with the program provided is how much time do you have to train? Doing a double threshold or workout may not make sense during the week if your working etc. but maybe doing it once a week on a Saturday or Sunday may make more sense. Kessler also mentioned not doing any runs over 6/7 miles not counting workouts and just doing more doubles.

I would really hesitate to recommend this schedule to somebody who ain’t a full-time pro that has built-up to this training over years. We don’t have any background on the OP’s training. I think most people would not be able to handle three workouts a week with a lot of double and a double threshold session unless they don’t have a full time job and have built gradually to this training load. I see this happen all the time. Non-pros, people running lower mileage, look at what the best in the world are doing and try to copy it. There are so many other pieces of the puzzle that you can add before getting to that level of training.

Nobody on LR says this when amateurs try to copy pro mileage. But as soon as amateurs try to do more than 2 workouts a week everyone warns them they’re going to burn out. 3 workouts a week is way greater risk/reward ratio than grinding out stupid mileage so I don’t get it.

OP don’t worry about three workouts per week. Anyone can handle it if they do it intelligently.

i would ignore the so called 'speed' workouts. just do your running drills and a 6x short hill sprint in the end of most workouts.

200m intervals are good. but mainly to improve running economy and not by doing them to fast hoping you will develop speed.

i would do 16x200 but first 8x and then build up.

It totally depends on the context. I’m not against doing three workouts a week. It depends on what the OP is doing now. They’re already trying to introduce a new stimulus with speed training. Copying an elite professional runner’s schedule, that includes double threshold, is ridiculous if the OP is only doing one workout a week at the moment. Even if they’re doing two workouts, what do those workouts look like? Going from 45 miles per week, two workouts a week, let’s say one is 4 x mile at threshold and the other is 6 x 1k, to doing three workouts a week and way more mileage, including a double threshold day, as described above, would not be a good idea. Completely different story if the OP is running 90 miles a week with lots of easy doubles.

You didn’t share your 400m speed, but if you’re a slow-twitch guy, there isn’t much you can do about it.

*a cycle of endurance of around 5-6 months.

Your top speed at longer distances isn't a limitation of speed but your endurance and ability to use what speed you have as you fatigue. Most runners when they think they need to improve their speed actually need to work on their endurance.

at most the 5k for now. will only race longer distances in maybe a decade

my 800m PR is about 2:04 and my 400m PR is 54.

this is one of those lines that people tell themselves who also think anything is possible with hard work

anyway, developing top speed is vastly different from polishing top speed. speed workouts merely polish. refining one's movement patterns is the key to making meaningful changes in one's basic speed, but good luck finding any sort of consensus on how to make those sorts of adjustments.