I will watch anything, but I am extremely skeptical of this venture, mostly because of the double race format. There are so few natural rivalries across multiple distances in track. And the few that exist might not come to fruition in this league. I mean, the fact that they set it up so that Jakob & Kerr wouldn’t likely race each other is bonkers. Kerr is a pure 1500/miler, but he’s no Coe or Ovett in the 800. It’s not like he dominated the British 800 trials. Nuguse has literally never run the 800 as a pro. Hocker has never broken 1:44. These guys aren’t elite 800 runners. And watching two 3000s/5000s two days apart is probably going to feel like watching the same race twice. Assuming Jakob is in the same shape next year as this year, he’ll show up at one Grand Slam, dominate the 3000/5000, and make the core group of guys look average. Then there will the 1500s with the 2024 podium, which will be good, followed by the 800s, which will be silly. The thing that sucks is that Kerr, Nuguse, Hocker, Jakob, Laros, and Hobbs will race each other in the 1500 almost never, which is the thing that I think everyone wants to see. But the format of Grand Slam makes it so it will never happen. No one had the courage to stand up to MJ and say that the double format doesn’t make sense. They should have just spent the $ to make the key rivalries (Tebogo/Lyles) (Jakob/Kerr/Hocker/Nuguse) (Bol/SmL) (Warhol/Benjamin/Dos Santos) (Alfred/Shacarri) happen as often as possible. Instead they’re paying huge amounts of money to shoehorn people into odd races where they’re not specialists. That’s not going to work.
I will watch anything, but I am extremely skeptical of this venture, mostly because of the double race format. There are so few natural rivalries across multiple distances in track. And the few that exist might not come to fruition in this league. I mean, the fact that they set it up so that Jakob & Kerr wouldn’t likely race each other is bonkers. Kerr is a pure 1500/miler, but he’s no Coe or Ovett in the 800. It’s not like he dominated the British 800 trials. Nuguse has literally never run the 800 as a pro. Hocker has never broken 1:44. These guys aren’t elite 800 runners. And watching two 3000s/5000s two days apart is probably going to feel like watching the same race twice. Assuming Jakob is in the same shape next year as this year, he’ll show up at one Grand Slam, dominate the 3000/5000, and make the core group of guys look average. Then there will the 1500s with the 2024 podium, which will be good, followed by the 800s, which will be silly. The thing that sucks is that Kerr, Nuguse, Hocker, Jakob, Laros, and Hobbs will race each other in the 1500 almost never, which is the thing that I think everyone wants to see. But the format of Grand Slam makes it so it will never happen.
No one had the courage to stand up to MJ and say that the double format doesn’t make sense.
They should have just spent the $ to make the key rivalries (Tebogo/Lyles) (Jakob/Kerr/Hocker/Nuguse) (Bol/SmL) (Warhol/Benjamin/Dos Santos) (Alfred/Shacarri) happen as often as possible. Instead they’re paying huge amounts of money to shoehorn people into odd races where they’re not specialists. That’s not going to work.
It's been discussed to death on so many threads:
1) No real market fit for this concept
2) Logistically it is a insane undertaking to try and start a 4 meet circuit basically remotely - especially when each of these meets are multiple days long
3) "Finding a TV provider" is almost the last of his worries - he needs to first have full stadiums (think 4 x Weltklasse Zurich/London Anniversary Games) before this even becomes remotely attractive to sponsors which will then make it attractive to a network
4) The format is going to create an inferior product on the most basic metric - the clock. The casual fan doesn't care about "rivalries" - they relate quality of product to the times being run and this entire format is geared around the complete opposite of that.
What I highlighted from you is so accurate and the problem in a nutshell. I don't think a lot of people really understand the type of person Michael Johnson is. If you really want to get cynical (honest?) this is more about MJ getting back in the spotlight and into relevance again and him undoubtedly making a nice cut of his 30 million in secured sponsorship.
People might say "why do people (like me) have to be such a hater" - easy cop-out. Is every idea a good or even feasible one just for the sake of optimism and positivity? This is the exact same BS that blow up companies and businesses of all sizes and statures. End of the day we are going to find out if the "haters" (pragmatists who might know more than a guy who simply showed up to meets, ran half or a full lap and collected a fat pay check he didn't negotiate) are right or is Michael Johnson.
I actually just double checked their 800 PRs. Neither Kerr nor Hocker have broken 1:45. Nuguse hasn't broken 1:46. That's 4-5 seconds shy of world class, given what the top guys were running this year.
I'm really curious who Merber picks for the 1500/800 last slot. Either he picks a world-class 800 runner like Hoppel, Sedjati (highly doubt it), Tual, Wanyonyi, or Arop. Or he goes all in on 1500 guys. If he picks an elite 800 guy, the races will look ridiculous, because those guys are FOUR seconds faster than the 1500 guys in the 800, and the 1500 guys are probably close to EIGHT seconds faster than the 800 guys in the 1500. I mean, maybe Wanyonyi keeps it a bit more competitive in the 1500, but I highly doubt Arop or Hoppel can run sub 3:36.
So either he avoids 800 guys altogether, and the 800s are just a C race. Or he signs on a podium-caliber 800 runner and all the races look ridiculous and non-competitive for the athletes in their second event. It's an impossible conundrum.
In terms of the final product, probably better to just pick Hobbs and go all in on 1500 guys.
People can justifiably bad mouth Noah Lyles for all sorts of reasons, but if I were in his position I'd want to see a TV deal in place for GST as well before I'd sign with them.
Some people are content to take up-front money or promises thereof and so what if it immediately blows up on GST or the races are run terribly. Some people want more than that if they're going to put up a paid effort, bearing in mind there's always the chance a questionable operation like this goes bust and ends up not paying you what they promised.
I will watch anything, but I am extremely skeptical of this venture, mostly because of the double race format. There are so few natural rivalries across multiple distances in track. And the few that exist might not come to fruition in this league. I mean, the fact that they set it up so that Jakob & Kerr wouldn’t likely race each other is bonkers. Kerr is a pure 1500/miler, but he’s no Coe or Ovett in the 800. It’s not like he dominated the British 800 trials. Nuguse has literally never run the 800 as a pro. Hocker has never broken 1:44. These guys aren’t elite 800 runners. And watching two 3000s/5000s two days apart is probably going to feel like watching the same race twice. Assuming Jakob is in the same shape next year as this year, he’ll show up at one Grand Slam, dominate the 3000/5000, and make the core group of guys look average. Then there will the 1500s with the 2024 podium, which will be good, followed by the 800s, which will be silly. The thing that sucks is that Kerr, Nuguse, Hocker, Jakob, Laros, and Hobbs will race each other in the 1500 almost never, which is the thing that I think everyone wants to see. But the format of Grand Slam makes it so it will never happen.
No one had the courage to stand up to MJ and say that the double format doesn’t make sense.
They should have just spent the $ to make the key rivalries (Tebogo/Lyles) (Jakob/Kerr/Hocker/Nuguse) (Bol/SmL) (Warhol/Benjamin/Dos Santos) (Alfred/Shacarri) happen as often as possible. Instead they’re paying huge amounts of money to shoehorn people into odd races where they’re not specialists. That’s not going to work.
It's been discussed to death on so many threads:
1) No real market fit for this concept
2) Logistically it is a insane undertaking to try and start a 4 meet circuit basically remotely - especially when each of these meets are multiple days long
3) "Finding a TV provider" is almost the last of his worries - he needs to first have full stadiums (think 4 x Weltklasse Zurich/London Anniversary Games) before this even becomes remotely attractive to sponsors which will then make it attractive to a network
4) The format is going to create an inferior product on the most basic metric - the clock. The casual fan doesn't care about "rivalries" - they relate quality of product to the times being run and this entire format is geared around the complete opposite of that.
What I highlighted from you is so accurate and the problem in a nutshell. I don't think a lot of people really understand the type of person Michael Johnson is. If you really want to get cynical (honest?) this is more about MJ getting back in the spotlight and into relevance again and him undoubtedly making a nice cut of his 30 million in secured sponsorship.
People might say "why do people (like me) have to be such a hater" - easy cop-out. Is every idea a good or even feasible one just for the sake of optimism and positivity? This is the exact same BS that blow up companies and businesses of all sizes and statures. End of the day we are going to find out if the "haters" (pragmatists who might know more than a guy who simply showed up to meets, ran half or a full lap and collected a fat pay check he didn't negotiate) are right or is Michael Johnson.
I would push back on the clock. If you turn off the clock and have people just run I find that far more compelling. People tuned into the Tour de France and the clock is really secondary (the time differential is important, but not in a given stage). The Olympics and worlds are compelling because it is not a race with a rabbit. It is a race to win. Many casual fans have no idea what a world record time is in many events, and far more will be compelled by a mad dash to the finish line.
There are so few rivalries in track because the top names dodge one another. There is no hope of building rivalries. Tennis is one of the greatest sports for rivalries because players cannot dodge one another. If they don't play in a year (aside from injury) it is because one lost before they could play.
Track has to have some way for the top 100m runners to run against one another often to create a rivalry and not some fake bravado rivalry via social media.
As for MJ wanting to do this and get in the spotlight---fine! If that is an outcome of getting good meets and good meets on tv then sign me up. I suspect that the cut he will get is costing him more in opportunity costs than he will actually net.
I will watch anything, but I am extremely skeptical of this venture, mostly because of the double race format. There are so few natural rivalries across multiple distances in track. And the few that exist might not come to fruition in this league. I mean, the fact that they set it up so that Jakob & Kerr wouldn’t likely race each other is bonkers. Kerr is a pure 1500/miler, but he’s no Coe or Ovett in the 800. It’s not like he dominated the British 800 trials. Nuguse has literally never run the 800 as a pro. Hocker has never broken 1:44. These guys aren’t elite 800 runners. And watching two 3000s/5000s two days apart is probably going to feel like watching the same race twice. Assuming Jakob is in the same shape next year as this year, he’ll show up at one Grand Slam, dominate the 3000/5000, and make the core group of guys look average. Then there will the 1500s with the 2024 podium, which will be good, followed by the 800s, which will be silly. The thing that sucks is that Kerr, Nuguse, Hocker, Jakob, Laros, and Hobbs will race each other in the 1500 almost never, which is the thing that I think everyone wants to see. But the format of Grand Slam makes it so it will never happen. No one had the courage to stand up to MJ and say that the double format doesn’t make sense. They should have just spent the $ to make the key rivalries (Tebogo/Lyles) (Jakob/Kerr/Hocker/Nuguse) (Bol/SmL) (Warhol/Benjamin/Dos Santos) (Alfred/Shacarri) happen as often as possible. Instead they’re paying huge amounts of money to shoehorn people into odd races where they’re not specialists. That’s not going to work.
The only event grouping that really makes sense for this type of doubling is the 100/200. Doubling the distance events doesn't make any sense, its pretty clear MJ doesn't really understand distance running. Most elite 1,500 runners these days skew more to the 3,000 side than the 800. Id be much more interested to see just 4 races for distance runners, 2 1,500s and 2 3,000s, leave the 5000 for the Diamond League.
The one advantage I see for this league is locking in athletes schedules ahead of time, gives you a chance to actually promote the runners & rivalries vs. DL fields that aren't finalized until the last minute. But don't saturate that with a bunch of events that aren't compelling. I love distance running, but I can't see myself being excited to watch 8 tactical 3,000/5,000s with largely the same fields.
I would push back on the clock. If you turn off the clock and have people just run I find that far more compelling. People tuned into the Tour de France and the clock is really secondary (the time differential is important, but not in a given stage). The Olympics and worlds are compelling because it is not a race with a rabbit. It is a race to win. Many casual fans have no idea what a world record time is in many events, and far more will be compelled by a mad dash to the finish line.
There are so few rivalries in track because the top names dodge one another. There is no hope of building rivalries. Tennis is one of the greatest sports for rivalries because players cannot dodge one another. If they don't play in a year (aside from injury) it is because one lost before they could play.
Track has to have some way for the top 100m runners to run against one another often to create a rivalry and not some fake bravado rivalry via social media.
As for MJ wanting to do this and get in the spotlight---fine! If that is an outcome of getting good meets and good meets on tv then sign me up. I suspect that the cut he will get is costing him more in opportunity costs than he will actually net.
Fair point - but we can agree to disagree on this. I'm going to guess that you, like myself, are a track and field fan right? So yes, for guys like us rivalries are awesome and it puts into context things like time. So we know the meaningfulness of Jakob v Josh, Femke v Syd, Rai v Karsten etc. So we find it more compelling but for this track league to be successful it's going to need to be consumable to more of the casual fan (as you mentioned) and these people and faces mean nothing to them. You are right - cusp/casual fans probably have no idea of what the WR's are or what a good time relative to the WR's are - but that info is only a quick google search away and it's digestible and quantifiable and people can relate to a number.
Track and Field and swimming are unique in that they are the only sports where the rivalry and the time matter. Sports like tennis (that you named) have no choice but to be founded on rivalries because match scores are by in-large totally meaningless - it's completely one dimensional in that respect.
So I definitely agree that for some fans "rivalries" matter - but I'm not sure they will matter to the fans that GST needs to capture in order to fill the stadiums, that will entice sponsors which will lead to a network wanting to fund this league long term. I could be totally wrong - it's just my feeling.
Regarding GST helping the sport? Well that's also debatable because yes some athletes are going to be paid (apparently) handsomely - but with the format and number of races (8 - which for example in the cases of SML and Kerr are far more than they are even running on the circuit now) it's unlikely we see these athletes in any DL/Grand Prix races at all running against the likes of Jakob, Femke etc. Does this meet simply serve to dilute the top level of the sport even more than it struggles with now? I just am not sure the sport is big enough to be able to necessitate what will ultimately be a rival league given the racing "priorities" of this new and more privileged era of athlete.
The only event grouping that really makes sense for this type of doubling is the 100/200. Doubling the distance events doesn't make any sense, its pretty clear MJ doesn't really understand distance running. Most elite 1,500 runners these days skew more to the 3,000 side than the 800. Id be much more interested to see just 4 races for distance runners, 2 1,500s and 2 3,000s, leave the 5000 for the Diamond League.
The one advantage I see for this league is locking in athletes schedules ahead of time, gives you a chance to actually promote the runners & rivalries vs. DL fields that aren't finalized until the last minute. But don't saturate that with a bunch of events that aren't compelling. I love distance running, but I can't see myself being excited to watch 8 tactical 3,000/5,000s with largely the same fields.
100% - the format couldn't be "out of the mind of the sprinter" could it. I would also say the 200/400 fits into a reasonable grouping but to think we will have 110 hurdlers running 100's that are going to be markedly slower than the 100/200 grouping is just strange.
The reason why I don't think GST is going to be good for the sport is because I don't think it will succeed. Any venture that gets a lot of funding and fails makes it harder for the next venture to raise capital. People like Kerr and SML will get paid and I don't begrudge them that. But if the league is on Flotrack and makes no money and blows up in a year, then future investors will be less likely to invest. Which means that while short term this will be good for athletes, long term it might be the opposite.
I will watch anything, but I am extremely skeptical of this venture, mostly because of the double race format. There are so few natural rivalries across multiple distances in track. And the few that exist might not come to fruition in this league. I mean, the fact that they set it up so that Jakob & Kerr wouldn’t likely race each other is bonkers. Kerr is a pure 1500/miler, but he’s no Coe or Ovett in the 800. It’s not like he dominated the British 800 trials. Nuguse has literally never run the 800 as a pro. Hocker has never broken 1:44. These guys aren’t elite 800 runners. And watching two 3000s/5000s two days apart is probably going to feel like watching the same race twice. Assuming Jakob is in the same shape next year as this year, he’ll show up at one Grand Slam, dominate the 3000/5000, and make the core group of guys look average. Then there will the 1500s with the 2024 podium, which will be good, followed by the 800s, which will be silly. The thing that sucks is that Kerr, Nuguse, Hocker, Jakob, Laros, and Hobbs will race each other in the 1500 almost never, which is the thing that I think everyone wants to see. But the format of Grand Slam makes it so it will never happen.
No one had the courage to stand up to MJ and say that the double format doesn’t make sense.
They should have just spent the $ to make the key rivalries (Tebogo/Lyles) (Jakob/Kerr/Hocker/Nuguse) (Bol/SmL) (Warhol/Benjamin/Dos Santos) (Alfred/Shacarri) happen as often as possible. Instead they’re paying huge amounts of money to shoehorn people into odd races where they’re not specialists. That’s not going to work.
It's been discussed to death on so many threads:
1) No real market fit for this concept
2) Logistically it is a insane undertaking to try and start a 4 meet circuit basically remotely - especially when each of these meets are multiple days long
3) "Finding a TV provider" is almost the last of his worries - he needs to first have full stadiums (think 4 x Weltklasse Zurich/London Anniversary Games) before this even becomes remotely attractive to sponsors which will then make it attractive to a network
4) The format is going to create an inferior product on the most basic metric - the clock. The casual fan doesn't care about "rivalries" - they relate quality of product to the times being run and this entire format is geared around the complete opposite of that.
What I highlighted from you is so accurate and the problem in a nutshell. I don't think a lot of people really understand the type of person Michael Johnson is. If you really want to get cynical (honest?) this is more about MJ getting back in the spotlight and into relevance again and him undoubtedly making a nice cut of his 30 million in secured sponsorship.
People might say "why do people (like me) have to be such a hater" - easy cop-out. Is every idea a good or even feasible one just for the sake of optimism and positivity? This is the exact same BS that blow up companies and businesses of all sizes and statures. End of the day we are going to find out if the "haters" (pragmatists who might know more than a guy who simply showed up to meets, ran half or a full lap and collected a fat pay check he didn't negotiate) are right or is Michael Johnson.
I disagree about the time and I'm a casual fan at best when it comes to pro running. I want to see an exciting race, not just a fast race.
I watch F1 and I really don't care about someone setting the fastest ever win, I care about a good race that isn't decided until the end.
I have very strong doubts about how successful this will be. Diamond League meets are mostly focused in Europe because the interest for track is bigger here than in the US.
This meet only exists so US based athletes like Kerr and Sydney can get paid without having to travel across the pond.
I have very strong doubts about how successful this will be. Diamond League meets are mostly focused in Europe because the interest for track is bigger here than in the US.
This meet only exists so US based athletes like Kerr and Sydney can get paid without having to travel across the pond.
While I think there is more to it than that, I think it is fair to argue that the biggest niche it so far has filled is facilitating more matchups of US-based stars. But they say more international runners are coming, and we’ll see how the doubling/event groups stuff works out.