I understand where you’re coming from, but it is proving impossible in the real world to slice the baloney that thin. You simply cannot tell trans people that their desires are entirely good and normal, that the world around them should change to fit their new sexual identity…but then tell them that in sports their actual sex is all that matters.
It just won’t work. The trans movement is a revolutionary movement and is not constructed to compromise. It is the equivalent of bailing water when your ship is already 6 feet under.
It is all or nothing. This is why transgender people continue to compete in the incorrect sex, and why it will continue to happen. We lack the courage or the philosophical foundation to say what is simply true: that you are the sex and gender you were born into, and no one has the power to change it, and make anyone else acknowledge it.
We will either do that, or we will see sports continue to be made into a farce.
Yes. I actually agree with you to a large extent.
I guess my point was just that I don't think most people care what you wear to the movies or if you change your name. Nobody cares what pronouns you and your friends use amongst yourselves. If the Right and the Left in this country can agree on one thing, it is the saying, "you do you; it's a free country."
But you can't show up at a girls track meet and dominate the females... That is just inconsiderate and unsportsmanlike.
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If you seriously believe this, you need counseling. Unlike you, Biden and Cardona have so many other things to worry about.
During his Senate confirmation hearings for US Secretary of Education in early 2021, Miguel Cardona tried to downplay his support for males competing in girls' and women's school sports. Cardona's views on "trans rights" as they pertain to school sports were the one area that got him the most pushback from Republican Senators such as rightwing firebrand Rand Paul, who asked:
"So you don’t have a problem then with boys running in the girls track meet, swimming meets, you name it? You’re okay with boys competing with girls? A lot of us think that’s bizarre, not very fair… You’re going to run the Department of Education, you’ve got no problem with it — that concerns me. And I think it’s this kind of thing is going to lead to really just the vast majority of America just wondering who are these people that think it’s okay, from what planet are you from?”
Since taking the helm at the Dept of Ed, Cardona has been every open about his view that males should be allowed compete in girls' and women's school sports when discussing the topic with the press. ESPN report from June 7, 2021:
U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona told ESPN that transgender girls have a "right to compete" and suggested that the Biden administration will step in to protect those students' civil rights, as multiple states enact legislation banning transgender athletes from competing in girls' and women's sports.
Cardona was the commissioner of education in Connecticut prior to joining President Joe Biden's cabinet and said his experience there "strengthened my resolve" to stand behind transgender athletes.
"It's their right as a student to participate in these activities. And we know sports does more than just put ribbons on the first-, second- and third-place winner," he said. "We know that it provides opportunities for students to become a part of a team, to learn a lot about themselves, to set goals and reach them and to challenge themselves. Athletics provides that in our K-12 systems and in our colleges, and all students deserve an opportunity to engage in that."
‘We’re not going to stand by idly,’ Cardona says amid growing transgender athlete bans
Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds last week signed a law that will ban transgender girls and women from playing on school and college athletic teams aligning with their gender identity. “Only female students, based on their sex, may participate in any team, sport, or athletic event designated as being for females, women, or girls,” the new law states.
The state’s move comes after President Joe Biden and U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona made clear their support for LGBTQ+ students.
Specifically, the Biden administration swiftly reversed a decision by former Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on an Office for Civil Rights case brought against six Connecticut school districts and the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference.
“We’re going to continue to fight and defend and support and stand behind our LGBTQ and our transgender students, because for far too long they’ve been marginalized, and sadly — during the pandemic — even elected officials have marginalized them,” Cardona said Monday.
“And we’re not going to stand by idly watching that happen,” Cardona said. “We’re going to lift up their voices and make sure that they recognize that our schools are for them and that they have the same opportunity any other students have. So not only in funding, but in policy and how we use the bully pulpit.”
If you seriously believe this, you need counseling. Unlike you, Biden and Cardona have so many other things to worry about.
BTW, "you need counseling" is exactly what U Penn adminstrators told female members of the Penn women's swim team several years ago when they said it wasn't fair for Lia Thomas to be allowed to switch from racing men to competing against women - and they expressed discomfort and distress about having to share women's locker rooms with Thomas.
The school told the women that if they were angry about the injustice of being forced to race against a man in women's competition, distressed by the privacy violation of having a man watching them get dressed and undressed in women's locker rooms, and alarmed by the sight of man's genitalia exposed in spaces that are supposed to be female-only, they should get counseling from mental health professionals.
Men telling women we're crazy and need help when we dare not to buy the bollox they/you are spouting is one of the oldest, most hackneyed, most predictable moves of misogynists the world over. But have at it, mate. Such tactics just make you look pathetic. And no mattter how many names you call me, I'm not gonna sudddently STFU, roll over and do as you say.
Your posting history makes it abundantly clear you're clueless about the core issues at hand here, which are:
1) the number, nature, breadth and depth, causes and consequences of the biological differences between human males and females that give males such a big advantage in sports;
2) the fact that there's absolutely no concrete evidence - zero, zilch, nada - that putting males on GnRH analog drugs as pre-teens and pumping them full of Big Pharma estrogen makes the male advantage magically disappear.
Those Penn women were directly affected by Thomas. They had legitimate reasons to be concerned.
You, on the other hand, are spending all day and all night trying to figure out how to smear, vilify and dehumanize trans people. You show ABSOLUTELY NO interest in women's sports when there are no trans or DSD athletes are involved. You claim any discussion of Title IX disputes or sexual harassment by male coaches is distraction from the ONLY issue you are interested in.
Unlike you, and your transphobic buddies, other people are actually interested in issues that do not involve trans or DSD people. Biden and Cardona are among those people/
I guess my point was just that I don't think most people care what you wear to the movies or if you change your name. Nobody cares what pronouns you and your friends use amongst yourselves. If the Right and the Left in this country can agree on one thing, it is the saying, "you do you; it's a free country."
But you can't show up at a girls track meet and dominate the females... That is just inconsiderate and unsportsmanlike.
No, I don't think the Right agrees with that.
They strongly believe in THEIR freedom, but not the freedom of people who disagree with them.
I guess my point was just that I don't think most people care what you wear to the movies or if you change your name. Nobody cares what pronouns you and your friends use amongst yourselves. If the Right and the Left in this country can agree on one thing, it is the saying, "you do you; it's a free country."
But you can't show up at a girls track meet and dominate the females... That is just inconsiderate and unsportsmanlike.
No, I don't think the Right agrees with that.
They strongly believe in THEIR freedom, but not the freedom of people who disagree with them.
You are right. We choose the freedoms we support and restrict the others.
I am a liberal, so personally I don't think people should be free to just cut down huge established trees in our neighborhood, drain wetlands, shoot animals out of season, graze cattle on protected lands, drive trucks without emission standards, own military-style weapons, etc.
There are lots of things we don't want people to do. That is called having a set of beliefs and values.
My point was that we all like to think "you do you" is our belief... but you are right, it comes with ideological limits from both sides. Good point.
I would say they should be given full and equal access to 99% of the things we all value. The 1% are things where biological women are innately at a disadvantage (such as pull-up competitions, boxing matches, cycling, swimming, etc.).
I support trans rights (and have always considered myself a liberal on this issue) but they should NOT be allow into women's athletic competitions for obvious reasons that reasonable people see and understand.
I understand where you’re coming from, but it is proving impossible in the real world to slice the baloney that thin. You simply cannot tell trans people that their desires are entirely good and normal, that the world around them should change to fit their new sexual identity…but then tell them that in sports their actual sex is all that matters.
It just won’t work. The trans movement is a revolutionary movement and is not constructed to compromise. It is the equivalent of bailing water when your ship is already 6 feet under.
It is all or nothing. This is why transgender people continue to compete in the incorrect sex, and why it will continue to happen. We lack the courage or the philosophical foundation to say what is simply true: that you are the sex and gender you were born into, and no one has the power to change it, and make anyone else acknowledge it.
We will either do that, or we will see sports continue to be made into a farce.
Thanks for saying more perfectly than I ever could have what your side believes.
Ruxton, if what you supported would be the end result, then I think enough trans people could live with it, even if it's not what they wanted. But those devoted to dehumanization of trans people, like Mikeh, are not just saying trans women have no place in women's sports. They are using that as a lever to get closer to their real goal: to enforce that trans people have no place anywhere -- unless, I suppose, they refuse with all their might to be who they are, and pretend their hardest to be cis.
Plenty of trans people can tell you what a miserable experience that is.
I understand where you’re coming from, but it is proving impossible in the real world to slice the baloney that thin. You simply cannot tell trans people that their desires are entirely good and normal, that the world around them should change to fit their new sexual identity…but then tell them that in sports their actual sex is all that matters.
It just won’t work. The trans movement is a revolutionary movement and is not constructed to compromise. It is the equivalent of bailing water when your ship is already 6 feet under.
It is all or nothing. This is why transgender people continue to compete in the incorrect sex, and why it will continue to happen. We lack the courage or the philosophical foundation to say what is simply true: that you are the sex and gender you were born into, and no one has the power to change it, and make anyone else acknowledge it.
We will either do that, or we will see sports continue to be made into a farce.
Yes. I actually agree with you to a large extent.
I guess my point was just that I don't think most people care what you wear to the movies or if you change your name. Nobody cares what pronouns you and your friends use amongst yourselves. If the Right and the Left in this country can agree on one thing, it is the saying, "you do you; it's a free country."
But you can't show up at a girls track meet and dominate the females... That is just inconsiderate and unsportsmanlike.
Mikeh's words which you quoted plainly oppose trans people existing as themselves in any capacity.
A lot of people do, in fact, care very much that trans people be made to suffer.
Mikeh's words which you quoted plainly oppose trans people existing as themselves in any capacity.
A lot of people do, in fact, care very much that trans people be made to suffer.
Well, any movement that a) "wants people to suffer" or b) cares more about their ideology than compromise, is both immoral and unsustainable (in a large, pluralistic country).
Mikeh and I agree that the far Left is also inflexible and not interested in "common sense." Where Mikeh and I disagree is that I believe there can and must be room for compromise and the ability to land on a very nuanced distinction between trans people living uneventful, boring, daily lives (like the rest of us) vs. a few hundred trans-girls destroying the record books in women's sports and bumping girls off teams and podiums.
Do I care if the cashier lady at Home Depot decides to dress and identify as a man? Not at all. Do I care if she>he runs in the men's division at the Turkey Trot? No I don't. Nobody should. Do I care if a JV boy transitions from 19th in League one year to State Champ as a girl the next year? Yes I do (and so do my daughters and their teammates).
Those are two very different realities. I am criticized by the Right and the Left because my "best case scenario" for this issue isn't ideologically pure. But hey, I am okay with that.
When it comes to legislation, nobody gets the steak they want. We all get the bratwurst. We live in a huge country and the best solutions always require nuanced (imperfect) compromise.
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Y'all are acting like this is the Olympics. This is mediocre high school track and field. This isn't even a high profile track meet, like New Balance Nationals. I agree that there needs to be policy barring this from collegiate athletics and professional sports (where money/scholarships/NIL is involved), but this is high school athletics. Let this kid have this affirming experience; she's not going to be able to compete collegiately, whereas all her competitors likely will.
Y'all are acting like this is the Olympics. This is mediocre high school track and field. This isn't even a high profile track meet, like New Balance Nationals. I agree that there needs to be policy barring this from collegiate athletics and professional sports (where money/scholarships/NIL is involved), but this is high school athletics. Let this kid have this affirming experience; she's not going to be able to compete collegiately, whereas all her competitors likely will.
That is the wrong way to look at it. Think of it in terms of harming girls' love of sports. After all, none of this really "matters" (even at the Olympic level). The power of sport comes from the fact that it is a great empowerer, it brings joy, and creates a sense of self-wroth (if you earn your results through hard work).
Men and women can find strength, beauty, and meaning in competition, teamwork, and fair-play. It doesn't really matter about the "level" of the competition.
A high school female has the same right to that as a high school male.
And I personally know of a girl who was bumped off her varsity team by a male. She was "only" their seventh runner. But all her training partners and friends were on that varsity team. Her body changed and so did the male's. Guess who suddenly got 58 seconds faster in the 5km? Not the girl. So now she was back on JV racing with a rag-tag mix of random girls she didn't really know who don't really even care about cross. And the trans-girl is going through male puberty (as is healthy for his body) and about to dominate the field in the girls' 5km next fall. Does that sound fair or right to you? What should we tell the entire girls' field if this one random trans-girl suddenly runs 16:20 at State?
I would say they should be given full and equal access to 99% of the things we all value. The 1% are things where biological women are innately at a disadvantage (such as pull-up competitions, boxing matches, cycling, swimming, etc.).
I support trans rights (and have always considered myself a liberal on this issue) but they should NOT be allow into women's athletic competitions for obvious reasons that reasonable people see and understand.
I understand where you’re coming from, but it is proving impossible in the real world to slice the baloney that thin. You simply cannot tell trans people that their desires are entirely good and normal, that the world around them should change to fit their new sexual identity…but then tell them that in sports their actual sex is all that matters.
It just won’t work. The trans movement is a revolutionary movement and is not constructed to compromise. It is the equivalent of bailing water when your ship is already 6 feet under.
It is all or nothing. This is why transgender people continue to compete in the incorrect sex, and why it will continue to happen. We lack the courage or the philosophical foundation to say what is simply true: that you are the sex and gender you were born into, and no one has the power to change it, and make anyone else acknowledge it.
We will either do that, or we will see sports continue to be made into a farce.
How should “we” communicate what you said in your 3rd paragraph? Will anyone be listening?
Do I care if a JV boy transitions from 19th in League one year to State Champ as a girl the next year? Yes I do (and so do my daughters and their teammates).
But this high jumper was never a JV boy, let alone 19th in the league. She never competed as a boy. We have no idea how she would be placed in the boys' competition if she had not started transitioning at an early age.
You seem to support "one size fits all" rule that categorically bans all trans girls from sports. That simplicity might give you comfort. But that position is not based on any scientific evidence.
You talk about your daughter and their teammates, Have you considered how this student's teammates have been going through in the last few weeks? Their friend has been exposed and vilified by total strangers who don't know her.
Jordan Campbell, the captain of the girls’ volleyball team at Monarch High School, told NBC6 on Wednesday that she’s worried about her teammate and that she ...
Men and women can find strength, beauty, and meaning in competition, teamwork, and fair-play. It doesn't really matter about the "level" of the competition.
Yeah, all cis men and women can do that. You might also tolerate trans men doing the same thing.
But if you are trans women / girls, stay away from sports. Just keep your head down, try to avoid anything that might invite any attention to you, and be thankful that you are allowed to exist.
I see this as a somewhat community-based and family-based issue and not organized entirely by political affiliation. I am politically-liberal (although I don't like either party) and I think that those with XY/male physical construction should absolutely not be involved in girls' or womens' sports. I have, first hand, witnessed this going bad on the basketball court with strength mismatches and also in running and swimming. For those who think this is "easy," it's clearly not or it would be solved. The individual literally feels part of the other gender and your logic is not their logic. Parents are advocating for their kids' right to participate and they get pretty fierce about it. Advocacy groups are skillful with PR because they are smart and organized. They aren't evil, they are advocates. They are also, I believe, wrong. Girls and women should have competitive sports that make some sense.
But if you are trans women / girls, stay away from sports. Just keep your head down, try to avoid anything that might invite any attention to you, and be thankful that you are allowed to exist.
So melodramatic. Noone is getting banned from sports, they are being asked to compete within their own category. Stopping a 40 year old man from competing against 12 year olds isn't 'hate' or denying his 'existence', it's asking him to compete in his correct category to ensure safety and fairness. The same applies to men trying to muscle in on women's sport. This is all kind of moot at this point anyway as the UK have just banned puberty blockers and I'm sure the rest of the world won't be far behind, so your absurd thought experiments will have to end too I'm afraid.
Men and women can find strength, beauty, and meaning in competition, teamwork, and fair-play. It doesn't really matter about the "level" of the competition.
Yeah, all cis men and women can do that. You might also tolerate trans men doing the same thing.
But if you are trans women / girls, stay away from sports. Just keep your head down, try to avoid anything that might invite any attention to you, and be thankful that you are allowed to exist.
It isn't an issue when the athletes are not competitive. If a girl wants to run in the boys race, there is no harm done and it is not a big deal. But if you flip that around and let boys into girls' sports, there is a major impact in the results. That is the difference.
If the boy transition and runs with the girl and is a random mid-pack person, then honestly, I don't care. I support trans people living their own lives. But if they blast an amazing 16:50 5km and win state (in most states that would win), then it seems kind of mean towards all the girls in that state who care about sport.
It has a lot to do with if a person is selfishly spoiling the competition for others.
And I personally know of a girl who was bumped off her varsity team by a male. She was "only" their seventh runner. But all her training partners and friends were on that varsity team. Her body changed and so did the male's. Guess who suddenly got 58 seconds faster in the 5km? Not the girl. So now she was back on JV racing with a rag-tag mix of random girls she didn't really know who don't really even care about cross. And the trans-girl is going through male puberty (as is healthy for his body) and about to dominate the field in the girls' 5km next fall. Does that sound fair or right to you? What should we tell the entire girls' field if this one random trans-girl suddenly runs 16:20 at State?
This does NOT sound fair to me.
It also does not sound fair to me to think every trans girl in HS sports is like this xc country runner. That's far from reality.