Am I reading this right, where a single entry in the men's 800 at BU is $75? That would mean that they're making $25,000 or so off of that event alone. Now multiply that out times all of the other events, times all of the meets that they have -- this is a multi-million dollar a year business, not to mention concessions, kickbacks from hotels and all of the other things they've got going on.
If that's the case, why don't other schools build a similar track?
It is absolutely insane how much money is made. Even if the entries were $25 per entry they would be raking in the dough. Also charging per entry so if teams run multiple entries and someone scratches they get that money regardless. Timing is a reasonable cost, then look at staffing numbers, and keep in mind this is a sufficiently large money making effort for their program. It’s why they fly to Texas Relays and other better level meets in outdoor when the other Patriot League or regional programs don’t. Some of that money might be getting deflected more to the Track at New Balance now though. Coaches should be signing deals with hotels and getting some reciprocity from this ya know?
Yes it generates revenue, but in the case of BU does it go to the general athletic budget? Sure it helps the track budget, however without football or Power 4 basketball TV money, the athletic department struggles for funding. Thus they don't turn away entries.
Why don't other schools build a similar track? Doing that is going to cost a good bit of upfront money and you're not guaranteed you'll get the kind of business BU does. I'm not even going to try to count how many schools there are within an hours or so drive of BU that have track teams, let alone the number within what most consider a reasonable drive but it's really big. There are also loads of running clubs as well. Few locales have anything close to the potential track users that BU does. And in the event a school beyond driving range wants to send people a fast track with good competition to chase times flying to Boston is one of the easiest flights you can find.
Just as a semi extreme example, ask how many schools with track teams are within a couple hours' drive of Orono, Maine and how simple it is to fly there. Then ask yourself why a school chasing times would want to send a team there when it's easier and cheaper to go to BU?
Take this a bit further and imagine you're an out of school runner who isn't world or national class but is still competing seriously on the track. Maybe you're just looking to get your 3,000 under nine minutes or your 800 under two minutes. The odds are that you and most others like you live a lot closer to BU than to the U. of Maine, or lots of other schools. Indoor track is a really, really, big thing in Boston and its general region and as such there is a lot of demand for a good indoor track, so much so that New Balance decided it was worthwhile to build another one. But most universities are in places where it's unlikely they'd get enough return on their investment to justify building auch a facility.
Why don't other schools build a similar track? Doing that is going to cost a good bit of upfront money and you're not guaranteed you'll get the kind of business BU does. I'm not even going to try to count how many schools there are within an hours or so drive of BU that have track teams, let alone the number within what most consider a reasonable drive but it's really big. There are also loads of running clubs as well. Few locales have anything close to the potential track users that BU does. And in the event a school beyond driving range wants to send people a fast track with good competition to chase times flying to Boston is one of the easiest flights you can find.
Just as a semi extreme example, ask how many schools with track teams are within a couple hours' drive of Orono, Maine and how simple it is to fly there. Then ask yourself why a school chasing times would want to send a team there when it's easier and cheaper to go to BU?
Take this a bit further and imagine you're an out of school runner who isn't world or national class but is still competing seriously on the track. Maybe you're just looking to get your 3,000 under nine minutes or your 800 under two minutes. The odds are that you and most others like you live a lot closer to BU than to the U. of Maine, or lots of other schools. Indoor track is a really, really, big thing in Boston and its general region and as such there is a lot of demand for a good indoor track, so much so that New Balance decided it was worthwhile to build another one. But most universities are in places where it's unlikely they'd get enough return on their investment to justify building auch a facility.
100%. It's far easier to fly into Boston, or Seattle if you're on the west coast, than to fly into Arkansas or South Bend (or Chicago and drive 2 hours).
Why don't other schools build a similar track? Doing that is going to cost a good bit of upfront money and you're not guaranteed you'll get the kind of business BU does. I'm not even going to try to count how many schools there are within an hours or so drive of BU that have track teams, let alone the number within what most consider a reasonable drive but it's really big. There are also loads of running clubs as well. Few locales have anything close to the potential track users that BU does. And in the event a school beyond driving range wants to send people a fast track with good competition to chase times flying to Boston is one of the easiest flights you can find.
Just as a semi extreme example, ask how many schools with track teams are within a couple hours' drive of Orono, Maine and how simple it is to fly there. Then ask yourself why a school chasing times would want to send a team there when it's easier and cheaper to go to BU?
Take this a bit further and imagine you're an out of school runner who isn't world or national class but is still competing seriously on the track. Maybe you're just looking to get your 3,000 under nine minutes or your 800 under two minutes. The odds are that you and most others like you live a lot closer to BU than to the U. of Maine, or lots of other schools. Indoor track is a really, really, big thing in Boston and its general region and as such there is a lot of demand for a good indoor track, so much so that New Balance decided it was worthwhile to build another one. But most universities are in places where it's unlikely they'd get enough return on their investment to justify building auch a facility.
I think it would be successful in the Pittsburgh region. None of the local schools (Pitt, Robert Morris, Duquesne, etc) has any indoor facility. The closest quality banked track is three hours away at Penn State and the closest quality oversize is about two over in Ohio at Kent State, Spire, or Youngstown.
Metro population in Pittsburgh alone is 2.5mm, and if you're counting let's say a 100 mile radius from downtown, that leaps to close to 10mm and certainly no shortage of colleges and universities in that circle.
My guess is that you could build it in the industrial parts of that city, maybe takeover an existing structure, get it done for $50mm with a bunch of local tax breaks and such for allowing high schools and such to use it during the week. If you build it like BU and have the competitive advantage be similar, I don't see why it wouldn't be a huge success.
There are 114 colleges and universities enrolling 396,000 students in Massachusetts alone, not to mention over 100 more schools in Connecticut, so there is a critical mass of students for track meets.
I think it is great! Having done meeting management myself, these things are expensive and they only way to turn a profit is MASSIVE distance fields.
Facility costs (cleaning, security, tickets, etc), timing, equipment, officials (officials cost so much, usually want a hotel, meals, hat, and a polo). They can demand this because they are in demand, everyone needs officials and it’s hard work.
A standard outdoor meet can run thousands of dollars. Rarely do you get a “kick back” on hotels but probably trade. A discount on rooms for recruits for example.
They have a great facility in a highly populated area. Distance races are fast (no blocks, hurdle set up, runway run throughs and attempts) they require a starter, some judges for the curves, and you can get 10-20 athletes on the track at the sometime. Makes that money
There are 114 colleges and universities enrolling 396,000 students in Massachusetts alone, not to mention over 100 more schools in Connecticut, so there is a critical mass of students for track meets.
Pennsylvania, according to Wikipedia, is 266 and 737,288 respectively.
PA overall has almost 6mm more people, and where Pittsburgh is situated, it would pull from all of Western Ohio, which is a Massachusetts of its own. Your data point only validates my perspective.
Interesting. I grew up close to where you are but have been gone for decades, though I get back pretty often and pay attention to sports there. One of the reasons I moved away aside from it being hard to find a decent job was that it was mostly a wasteland in terms of running and racing. That certainly has changed as far as road races go.
But has it for track, at least as much as it would make it seem like you'd get a decent return on a $50 million investment? From where I am now I'm skeptical. I'm from Johnstown. As far as I know, none of the high schools there have indoor track. I may dig into that a bit more. But in Massachusetts pretty much every high school has indoor track. Again, I'm interested in your answer.
As far as college indoor track in western Pa., Penn State has a good facility that's not hard to get to and flying to Boston or bussing or flying to New York is not all that hard or expensive. I think one other thing that draws schools to indoor meets in Boston and New York is the attention those cities get from having high profile pro meets there. Finally, I know from experience that Pittsburgh is far from being the hardest city in the US to fly to but it's not exactly one of the easiest either.
Interesting. I grew up close to where you are but have been gone for decades, though I get back pretty often and pay attention to sports there. One of the reasons I moved away aside from it being hard to find a decent job was that it was mostly a wasteland in terms of running and racing. That certainly has changed as far as road races go.
But has it for track, at least as much as it would make it seem like you'd get a decent return on a $50 million investment? From where I am now I'm skeptical. I'm from Johnstown. As far as I know, none of the high schools there have indoor track. I may dig into that a bit more. But in Massachusetts pretty much every high school has indoor track. Again, I'm interested in your answer.
As far as college indoor track in western Pa., Penn State has a good facility that's not hard to get to and flying to Boston or bussing or flying to New York is not all that hard or expensive. I think one other thing that draws schools to indoor meets in Boston and New York is the attention those cities get from having high profile pro meets there. Finally, I know from experience that Pittsburgh is far from being the hardest city in the US to fly to but it's not exactly one of the easiest either.
SPIRE Institute in Geneva, OH is significantly closer to Pittsburgh than Philly. It's a two hour drive. 300M track, one of the best around. Go there if you're in Pittsburgh. Many PA kids come over for the various high-quality meets held there each indoor season, both HS and collegiate.
Interesting. I grew up close to where you are but have been gone for decades, though I get back pretty often and pay attention to sports there. One of the reasons I moved away aside from it being hard to find a decent job was that it was mostly a wasteland in terms of running and racing. That certainly has changed as far as road races go.
But has it for track, at least as much as it would make it seem like you'd get a decent return on a $50 million investment? From where I am now I'm skeptical. I'm from Johnstown. As far as I know, none of the high schools there have indoor track. I may dig into that a bit more. But in Massachusetts pretty much every high school has indoor track. Again, I'm interested in your answer.
As far as college indoor track in western Pa., Penn State has a good facility that's not hard to get to and flying to Boston or bussing or flying to New York is not all that hard or expensive. I think one other thing that draws schools to indoor meets in Boston and New York is the attention those cities get from having high profile pro meets there. Finally, I know from experience that Pittsburgh is far from being the hardest city in the US to fly to but it's not exactly one of the easiest either.
People tend to way overestimate how profitable business are. They make guesses at income and ignore all the costs. And it can take years to build up the cachet to have people filling up your fields.
What's amazing to me is that BU is faster and gets better races than the New Balance facility a mile down the street. NB went with hydraulic bank model so they can make it flat and do basketball, volleyball, lacrosse, pickleball, etc which means the track is not as fast as BU but gets other uses. NB is also such a strange layout (why so many stairs up to the track and warmup on another level?)
Why don't other schools build a similar track? Doing that is going to cost a good bit of upfront money and you're not guaranteed you'll get the kind of business BU does. I'm not even going to try to count how many schools there are within an hours or so drive of BU that have track teams, let alone the number within what most consider a reasonable drive but it's really big. There are also loads of running clubs as well. Few locales have anything close to the potential track users that BU does. And in the event a school beyond driving range wants to send people a fast track with good competition to chase times flying to Boston is one of the easiest flights you can find.
Just as a semi extreme example, ask how many schools with track teams are within a couple hours' drive of Orono, Maine and how simple it is to fly there. Then ask yourself why a school chasing times would want to send a team there when it's easier and cheaper to go to BU?
Take this a bit further and imagine you're an out of school runner who isn't world or national class but is still competing seriously on the track. Maybe you're just looking to get your 3,000 under nine minutes or your 800 under two minutes. The odds are that you and most others like you live a lot closer to BU than to the U. of Maine, or lots of other schools. Indoor track is a really, really, big thing in Boston and its general region and as such there is a lot of demand for a good indoor track, so much so that New Balance decided it was worthwhile to build another one. But most universities are in places where it's unlikely they'd get enough return on their investment to justify building auch a facility.
To expound on this, it's not so much the economics of a banked track - they're actually going up everywhere these days, even Florida's building one - but rather a banked, wood-framed track. Metal framed tracks are probably cheaper to build and much cheaper to maintain, and now everyone wants hydraulically banked tracks for maximum space utilization when the track isn't being used. I wouldn't be surprised if every wood-framed track ever built was a one-off custom design, and I don't believe any have been built since BU. It made sense for BU at the time; they already had well-attended meets and they were known for their old bouncy wooden track, so of course they wanted the new one to be even faster.
Pretty sure they pay to close off the road in front of the track all day and they also pay Boston PD to shut off all the parking meters and police the area as well. Lots of extra cost but they’re still generating tons of revenue. Figure they make $250k+ on entries, another few thousand on spectators, and then concessions. Gotta subtract out cost of sustaining the track (just resurfaced this year), paying all the workers, timing company for 2 days which I believe they pay two full crews for morning and night sessions
Why don't other schools build a similar track? Doing that is going to cost a good bit of upfront money and you're not guaranteed you'll get the kind of business BU does. I'm not even going to try to count how many schools there are within an hours or so drive of BU that have track teams, let alone the number within what most consider a reasonable drive but it's really big. There are also loads of running clubs as well. Few locales have anything close to the potential track users that BU does. And in the event a school beyond driving range wants to send people a fast track with good competition to chase times flying to Boston is one of the easiest flights you can find.
Just as a semi extreme example, ask how many schools with track teams are within a couple hours' drive of Orono, Maine and how simple it is to fly there. Then ask yourself why a school chasing times would want to send a team there when it's easier and cheaper to go to BU?
Take this a bit further and imagine you're an out of school runner who isn't world or national class but is still competing seriously on the track. Maybe you're just looking to get your 3,000 under nine minutes or your 800 under two minutes. The odds are that you and most others like you live a lot closer to BU than to the U. of Maine, or lots of other schools. Indoor track is a really, really, big thing in Boston and its general region and as such there is a lot of demand for a good indoor track, so much so that New Balance decided it was worthwhile to build another one. But most universities are in places where it's unlikely they'd get enough return on their investment to justify building auch a facility.
This actually makes a lot of sense. Most of the big running places out West are at altitude (Boulder, Flagstaff, wherever BYU is), or on the coast (Stanford, all of Cali tbh), or are difficult to fly to (UW, UO). There's not many options really.
But! Now that short tracks can be built outdoors, could Stanford or someone build the BU track and just not put on a roof? I know people go to Stanford (or at least used to) to knock out qualifiers because the weather is so predictably good. A fast track there would attract all of the top athletes west of the rockies.
There are 114 colleges and universities enrolling 396,000 students in Massachusetts alone, not to mention over 100 more schools in Connecticut, so there is a critical mass of students for track meets.
Pennsylvania, according to Wikipedia, is 266 and 737,288 respectively.
PA overall has almost 6mm more people, and where Pittsburgh is situated, it would pull from all of Western Ohio, which is a Massachusetts of its own. Your data point only validates my perspective.
Technically you are correct but I don't think that necessarily helps your argument. PA may have about twice as many colleges and students as MA but it's also almost four times as big in terms of area. And PA's biggest population center is on the other side of the state from Pittsburgh. According to Google, driving from Philly to PA takes 5 hours and 4 minutes and driving from Philly to Boston takes 5 hours and 20 minutes. A track in Pittsburgh might work out but not because it would be attracting all colleges/students from PA.
This actually makes a lot of sense. Most of the big running places out West are at altitude (Boulder, Flagstaff, wherever BYU is), or on the coast (Stanford, all of Cali tbh), or are difficult to fly to (UW, UO). There's not many options really.
But! Now that short tracks can be built outdoors, could Stanford or someone build the BU track and just not put on a roof? I know people go to Stanford (or at least used to) to knock out qualifiers because the weather is so predictably good. A fast track there would attract all of the top athletes west of the rockies.
When I ran at UMaine I remember seeing pictures of a wooden, banked outdoor track they had back in the early 20th century. Looked to be ~220 yards and was located over by Corbett Hall.