Don’t understand VO2 max workouts

Is this person continuing to race into outdoor track?

Let races be the main V02 max workouts. What better stimulus is there than 3x 1000m with zero rest? Think about what that does to the body.

Since this is High School, you have plenty of opportunities to race as you see fit.

I think it’s better to develop their aerobic system and work on sub-race pace speed. If you want them to experience race pace, just do 400s or something like you described later. Rhythm work so it’s ingrained.

In my experience, the way to go is to start off with more broken up volume at Vo2Max with longer rest to prepare the body, and then have those workouts where you are spending 2:30-5:00 at a time in that Vo2Max zone.

Here’s how I think the progression ought to go for 3k-5k type training

8x400m @ 3k pace w/2:00 rest

12x400m @5k-3k pace w/2:00 rest

12x400m @3k pace w/400m jog rest

4-5x800m @5k-3k pace w/ 2:30 or 400m jog rest

12x400m @3k pace w/200m jog rest

2x(800-400-400) @3k pace w/400m jog rest

6x800m @5k-3k pace w/400m jog rest

2x1600m @5k pace 2x800m @3k pace w/1:1 standing/walking rest

That’s about 2.5 months of Vo2Max progression, it starts with introducing the tempo in shorter reps for muscular adaptation, and then the later workouts force more aerobic adaptation and the dreaded “pain tolerance” work.

I pretty much agree. With longish reps at 3k/5k pace it is really easy overcook yourself by misjudging the pace/volume. The margin of error in 400s is just a lot bigger. Blasting them out at 1500m pace isn’t good but it is survivable. Do your 800/1600 to fast and you will struggle to finish the workout.

Towards the end of the season you should both have a better judge of your fitness and a pretty good sense of pace.

Also this should be emphasized, a 3k runner should be doing things like 3-6 mile runs at projected half marathon pace, as well as 800s/1000s at 8k-10k pace regularly. As well as the occasional 200s/300s at 800m-1000m pace and mile specific sessions. Speed is pretty relevant once we are talking sub 9:20 type 3200m athletes which is what it takes to start getting invited to those big meets. Your athletes don’t need to be 50 second 400m fast like they would for the 8/16 but they should be able to drop a sub 27 200m any day of the week.

Thank you, so much! That is super helpful. But I have some questions below…

In the start of the season we do thresholds and hills.

In the middle/2 months out from the peak, race we do VO2 and thresholds. And now I know a perfect progression for VO2 as I start to introduce it.

At the end/2 weeks out, we take out the VO2, keep lighter, reduced thresholds, and ramp up the speedier stuff (which is barely a workout…it is supposed to be relaxed).

There is a long run done, too, if the race schedule permits.

However there are not runs at half marathon pace and there are not reps at 10k pace.

Seems like with a threshold, VO2, and a race or long run every week these would be hard to add! What session could it replace some weeks/could it take place in the long run even??

For speed, we do 6x100 strides @ mile pace twice a week: once after threshold work and once after an easy run. So more speed is needed ALL throughout the season rather than just the end? Again, how would I even fit this in?? There are so many different areas we need to touch on!!

Also they are girls so they will definitely not be going sub 9:20.

Sorry if these are bad questions, I am a new coach and trying to learn…

Half marathon pace is essentially threshold, for a high caliber 3k-5k guy lactate threshold will be somewhere between 10 mile to 13 mile race pace.

My answer to your question would be variety! You won’t lose Vo2Max, or speed, or lactate threshold/tolerance by not doing it for a week, especially if you are hitting other strong stimuli. It also keeps the mind fresh and away from mental burnout longer.

One week you could do something like:

Mon: 12x400m @3k pace W/400m jog (Vo2Max Stimulus)

Wed/Thurs: 3-4 mile tempo, 4x200m @ 800m race pace off of 1:30-2:00 rest (lactate threshold/tolerance)

Saturday: Easy long run w/ 6x100-200m hills with long rest at the end (aerobic/speed)

The next week you can do something like:

Mon: 6x300m @1600 working to 800m pace off of 2:00 rest (speed, anaerobic endurance)

Wed/Thurs: 10x800m @8k-10k pace off of 400m jog or 2:30 rest (high end aerobic/sub Vo2Max work)

Saturday: Quality long run, either steady, progressive, or fartlek, but 7-8/10 effort type day. (Threshold/ Aerobic)

If your athlete is racing 3k/3200m/5000m one week, that can replace their Vo2Max workout, if they race 800/1600m, that can replace the longer speed or anaerobic endurance day for the week. I’d also recommend doing 2-4x150m depending on freshness rather than 6x100m 1-2 times a week on easy days, but hitting 800m sometimes even 400m pace on these strides, really focusing on form and turnover.

You need to read a source like Jack Daniels’ Running Formula. His workouts are too much to lift and apply to many HS runners, but his explanation of training principles is outstanding.
Understanding why you are having athletes do what they are doing is an important tool.

Thanks! Hopefully last question for you…I know tempos start to go down in volume and VO2 workouts are best to stop 2 weeks or so from the peak race. The speed stuff gets easier here, with longer breaks, but still stays in rotation to keep turnover.

What about the 8k-10k reps towards the end of the season?

Vigil is the source for this kind of approach.

Start with work capacity- 12-20x400 at 5k pace with 1:1 rest. With second workout 200 m hill repeats at 3k pace Progress til you are at mile repeats at 5k, then start increasing pace to 3k and shortening length from 1200 then to 3-5x 1k at 3k pace then to time trials over 3k then to 1k/400 ( 1k at 3k pace, rest, 400 at mile pace repeat . Make the second shorter workout at the pace you want to progress to on the longer workout

I think you could use it at a lower volume to maintain fitness, in my opinion you want to always stay in touch with your ability to put in higher workout volume than race day for a 3k-5k guy, because I personally find the 3k or 5k feels a lot better when it doesn’t feel like a super long race.

I’d say late season you could do something like 6x800m or 5x1k in this pace range to maintain aerobic fitness and mental sharpness without having to go through a grueling workout.

You can also make some good hybrid workouts later in the season where you’d do something like 3x1k at 8k pace and then cut down to a solid dose of faster 400s or 200s. Again, it takes decent speed to be a sub 4:3x miler so it would definitely take speed to be a 4:3x miler twice in a row, and you need to be able to run fast when tired too.

If you are a coach, aren't you supposed to know these things?
Or are you pretending gaining money with free advice from other people?

I just got put as track coach after our old one suddenly left. I don’t have much experience (at all, I just run for fun) with high-school running so I’m trying to learn in short notice. So no, I’ve never been a coach, and I shouldn’t have know this stuff. But now I’m about to be a coach, and I do now.

Average letsrunner gets mad at people learning

This can definitely be a good (and awful place) to do it. Outside of literature and studying pro/top collegiate training I think i’ve accrued lots of training knowledge here.

Good on you for being willing to do your research though. I am dead serious when I say lots of highschool choaches will look up “how to run a faster 5k” click on the runners world article that comes up and base their entire program off of that.

If you haven’t done physiology type research yet, I’d look into how different exercises stimulate fast/slow twitch muscle, your cardiovascular system, etc, and then research the aerobic to anaerobic component to each event you are coaching for. There’s really good straight to the point studies available that highlight every event and what their oxygen demands are vs what their muscular demands are etc, And will help you understand how to train specific athletes when they need it.

The program I’ve outlined for you will get your runners pretty darn good at anything from 800-5k if they do it right, but it’s best for 3k runners. Once you understand the physiological demands for 16/32 guy vs a 8/16 guy you can make those little tweaks to their training to be optimal for them, which can turn a mediocre runner into one of your stars if you find something that works for them.

Hang in there!

You're doing the right thing by trying to learn this stuff. Your athletes are going to be competitive. At some lower tier meets, where all the other coaches are football coaches collecting an extra pay check, your athletes will stand out.

Some of the workouts in this thread are probably too tough for sub-elite HS kids, but they'll get you in the ballpark. Talk to your runners every day and keep a pulse on how they're recovering. Feel free to cut some reps off the workouts. Keep your kids healthy. Feel free to spread the workouts out a little more than described above.

There is some really bad advice on this thread. For your athletes’ sake do not Lift from here and subject them to these progressions or training loads.
Read the science or take a class/go to a clinic.

Consider not doing Vo2max workouts over the winter. With an indoor season that long, your kids will probably get all they need from racing, especially if they are doubling up early season. Instead, I'd suggest that the majority of the workouts be long repeats, not very fast -- 5-8 x 800-1000m at 8-10k pace with 200m jog (you can guesstimate workout paces from the conversion tables based on current race times -- CV work, I suppose), some tempo work like 2 x 2 miles at roughly 15% slower than current 3k time. For speed, do short repeats, 200m-400m. Do a few sets of 3-4 repeats with short recovery, with longer breaks between sets.

When in doubt, I'd err on the side of fewer workouts. Keep the volume up, or they will have nothing for outdoor. For the ones good enough to do NBN, you can always switch to a block of more race-specific work the six weeks before.

I assume they race now regulary, so there is no need for any 'VO2max' workouts. VO2max develops long term over years.