Training sub-threshold

Now then, do you see the trend of the reps, and the departure from that trend in the last two, particularly the last one?

My plan for the next session is to increase the workout to 10 reps instead of 9 (a 11% increase in volume), but I’ll try to keep all of the reps’ HRmax at 155bpm or below, resulting in the reps’ HRavg capping off at 145bpm.

Cooler weather has moved in, so it might make the results more interesting; I’ll try to update.
Cheers!

But there is more that can be considered with this idea of training at sub-Threshold. For instance, would it not be more beneficial to keep all of the reps below 88% HRmax (150bpm), rather than 90.6% HRmax (155bpm), for the purposes of increasing the threshold training volume maybe up to 11reps (22% volume increase) instead of up to 10reps?

These are training nuances for consideration. Without a observant coach on-site, possibly the feeling of fatigue build-up should be the primary guide.

BTW, mu current 5k fitness is probably around 21:40 (per my previous posts), so the above reps are coming in around 5k pace.

Is threshold a pace you could hold steady for

sorry.

Is threshold a pace you can hold steady for 1 hour of running?

No. I consider threshold to be around 88-90% HRmax, and that is quite sufficient for my purposes.

I’m coming from a training background of relatively low volume. Consequently, there is no way I could run the 10k, Half and Marathon race equivalents’ of a 21:40 5k (per Daniels Calculator.)

Therefore, training by heart rate keeps me out-of-trouble, so-to-speak.

Just a quick update, before heading to the track:

The plan is to attempt 12x400, w/2min rest.
These 400’s are to ‘run by feel’, with the understanding this workout is sandwiched between days of ‘Slow Methodical Hill-Repeats’ (performed yesterday and tomorrow). Should be interesting to see how it turns out.

According to Daniels' book, your 400s interval training with 2' rest is more likely VO2max training, not sub LT training. Additionally, in short intervals training, heart rate is meaningless. Daniels' book explains that it takes at least 2 minutes for your heart rate to increase sufficiently. Therefore, I recommend using the VDOT table and the paces instead.

Obviously, I’m not following a Daniels training plan (nor Lydiard, etc). Daniels has total workout volume recommendations for his various paces. My workout volumes far exceed those recommendations. (My weekly training volume is currently 20-30 miles/week.)

IMO, there is a host of benefits to modulating rep effort with heart rate (in lieu of, for example, lactate monitoring) and that even includes reps as short as 400m. It is with HR modulation that I’m able to stack successive days of workouts, and that on relatively low volume to-boot.

Here is the session for the day following the one I posted earlier:

*******
Day 49, Aug 6, 2023, at night, cooler.
‘Slower-methodical’ 9xHill-repeats’.
Total distance and time covered in 9xHill-repeats (both up and down hill) was 3.28miles, in 37:04. The High Heart Rate Alert did not go off before reaching top of hill on all reps.
Shoe: NB flats.
Post-workout Garmin 5k estimate: 20:36*.

Next, I’ll post results from today’s session, preceded by a list of the reps from the Aug 5 session, for the purpose of easy comparison.

One caveat: today’s reps were to be run ‘by feel’ without checking the watch, but the watch’s ‘High HR Alert’ (set to 147bpm) from yesterday’s Hill-Rep Session was still enabled, consequently providing a check on rep intensity.

Day 50, Aug 7, ‘23
Ran near sunset.
Temp: ~71degF, Dew point: 67degF.
PM: 12x400m, ~2min rest
Rep
Time|Pace|AvgHR/MaxHR|SPM/Lngth|GCT
1:51.1|7:23/mi|137/146bpm|176/1.23m|242ms
1:49.7|7:18/mi|138/147bpm|180/1.15m|241ms
1:47.5|7:03/mi|142/151bpm|182/1.22m|240ms
1:47.1|7:02/mi|141/151bpm|180/1.26m|238ms
1:45.1|6:44/mi|140/153bpm|181/1.28m|235ms
1:46.4|7:03/mi|144/153bpm|183/1.25m|238ms
1:42.4|6:35/mi|141/154bpm|183/1.29m|231ms
1:44.0|6:49/mi|140/155bpm|182/1.29m|232ms
1:43.2|6:43/mi|139/153bpm|181/1.27m|226ms
1:44.6|6:57/mi|142/154bpm|184/1.23m|230ms
1:42.2|6:33/mi|139/156bpm|186/1.25m|226ms
1:43.1|6:46/mi|145/156bpm|181/1.30m|227ms

Note: The latter reps were run alternating the direction around the track, and the GPS erroneously added extra distance to some of those reps inexplicably; consequently, the watch’s computed paces are a bit in error for some of those reps.
Shoe: GoRazor
Post-workout Garmin 5k estimate: 20:16*.

I apologize, I wish to change my answer to “Maybe.”

Assuming I’m currently a 21:40 athlete, per Daniels’ Calculator, such an athlete should be able to run 8.1 miles in an hour (i.e., 7:25/mi pace). That would be extremely challenging in my current condition, because of my low-volume base fitness.

Realistically, I could currently run somewhat less than 8miles in an hour. If it is, for example, 7.25 miles, that would suggest 8:17/mi is my threshold pace. And yet, Daniels Calculator says my threshold pace should be 7:25/mi. Do you understand the quandary in there being a difference between the two? My previous answer was sort of a direct attempt to explain the quandary.

Don't rely solely on the Daniels' Calculator on website, instead, read Daniels' original book to prevent misunderstandings.

To add further explanation to my previous answer…Daniels VO2max Intervals are to be run at ~VO2max pace, a pace that can be held (per Daniels and Cooper) for 10-12 minutes. Using Daniels’ Calculator, we determine a 21:40 athlete can run 2650m in 11 minutes, which is 6:41/mi pace.

Sure, I could crank these 400m reps down to 6:41/mi (i.e., 1:40 per rep), which would take me further anaerobic, but I’m base-building, placing more emphasis on ‘quality volume’, rather than intensity.

Says the AI bot? What ‘misunderstandings’ are you referring to?

Why do some people call me an AI bot? It's so stupid!

But anyway, what I mean is that Daniels' training system is built upon the VDOT table.

For instance, if your current 5k time is 21:40, your VDOT value would be 45.

As a result, your I-pace would be 6:50/mi, and your T-pace would be 7:24/mi.

Thus, your 400s training are more towards VO2max training.

Per Daniels online calculator, a 21:40 5k is a VDOT value of 45.3, with T-pace of 7:25 and I-pace of 6:49, which is 1:42/400m.

I’m not sure which version of DRF I purchased several years ago (and don’t have handy, but a pdf version can be found online.)

Thanks for bringing to my attention some of those 400’s are approaching VO2max pace, which wasn’t my primary consideration. Rather I’m capping the pace by keeping HR generated below 90% HRmax. It may not be a steady-state lactate condition (faster than MLSS pace) but the 2min recovery helps reduce any elevation in blood acidity.

My HR recovers well below 120bpm in the rest period.