Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Shirtboy already answered, but 30 seconds rest is standing for me on the 400s. On the 60 second rests, I'll usually take 30 standing and then just slowly get back towards a short jog.

Ultimately , just rest. I don't think it matters too much.

As shirtboy also said, it's about creating as much training stress as possible, without burning out or getting injured.

It's not really about single or doubles. If you aren't doing enough miles to warrant it (im doing like 50-55) just do it in singles. If you are probably at the 70+ range I would start to think about doubling, but I would do the doubles on the easy days. So like 2x 45 min runs a couple of days. Then maybe (as I've seen Jacobs hobby jogger bro so), stick to 3 sub threshold sessions but add extra reps on. For instance I've seen him do 12x1k or he quite regularly does 4x3 k, whereas I'm doing 3x3k. This would take me up to maybe 65-70 miles and I'm still not in threshold double range, although a couple of easy runs.

Doubles definitely help, I just don't have time. The most insane fitness I ever had on a bike was when I was riding doubles. I would do sweetspot on a bike twice a day on my commute and hour home and then same again back. I didn't know it really at the time, but I guess I was doing early Norwegian training almost by accident.

I'm glad people find this useful. I'm not saying it's absolutely optimal. But for regular hobby joggers especially I think it's probably the maximum TSS you can squeeze into a week and it be sustainable.

This thread is genuinely one of the best I've ever read on here. Some amazing in depth info. Keep it coming guys

So you really want us to believe running more threshold and running no race specific stuff will make you faster? Yeah right lol

All I can say is this has worked for me. Same mileage, dropped about 80 seconds off my pb after a huge brick wall I hit. I'm certainly not the only one doing this - and nobody I've spoken to or seen as got slower. Even Jacob's older hobby jogger brother is still progressing.

It's also worth noting what has already been mentioned, that just because most people train a different way, doesn't make what the masses do the best way.

Going back to cycling, look at how British cycling or team sky looked at things totally differently after people had relatively training their aerobic systems the same way, for almost a hundred years. They then reinvented the wheel and everyone had to catch up. Obviously there were outliers who understood threshold training, use of power meters before, but they brought it to the masses. In my opinion we could be in the midst of something similar for running, due to the success of the Norwegians.

This isn't a miracle. It's not suddenly turned me world class. But I do think it's the best way to eek out the maximum of my relatively limited talent.

If you think, it's still not that different to a more classic approach.

Before I was running 1 easy, 3 moderate runs, a vo2 max session and some sort of tempo along with the "long" run.

Now I'm running 3 easy runs, 3 threshold and 1 long run.

The key difference is the latter is slowly creating more stress, week after week on the body so you get fitter and fitter whilst feeling sustainable. It's just more work. Even though on the face of it it might not seem it. More work equals more gains. I really think it's that simple and for me makes total sense .

Do you find these to be paces you can comfortably hit on workouts 3x a week on that rest? I'm around 17:00 and have been doing basically this for a month or so based on a similar thread from a few years ago, but the 1k's were closer to HM pace and the Mile/2k closer to M pace. I don't feel gassed at the ends of workouts but I also don't think I could go with those relative paces you're referring to without getting significantly more fatigued over time.

Specifically, I did 25x400 at about 85 with 40s rest, 10x1000 at 3:40ish with 1:00 rest, 6-7xMile at 6:10-20 (road, so less precise) with 1:00. All of them felt comfortably difficult like I *could* double later that day, but would need an easy run the next day. Running about 65 mpw, 17:low fitness.

OP, just realised I actually had an account so don't need to reply as a guest each time.

I couldn't double at these paces. These (I think as shirt boy posted) are probably near the top end of sub threshold. Most people who double will do these slightly easier perhaps but definitely the first session of the day would be more like marathon pace. But it you did 2 marathon paced workouts for example, that's still more TSS scored than one of these sessions I outlined. But I think I've heard people successfully targeting 1.5-2 in the morning mmol and maybe 3 mmol in the evening. Im more up around the 3.5 range in the single session. But if I was to double, I would probably do MP in the morning and then instead of say 12-15 k effort in the evening, make sure I was no faster than 15k in the evening. I hope that makes sense.

You are basically doing the same paces I am now and for me it doesn't feel easy, but it also doesn't feel hard. The last one in the 10x1k I sometimes feel a bit. But I've dialled these all into paces that match up with my actual lactate responses when I've tested. So it may be slightly different for you. What I posted is just a guide.

The one thing I would say, is if you are worried you are going to hard, dial it back a bit. It's most important not to go over. That's where even a few minutes a bit over threshold, you can really feel it the next day. Even at 90% of LT, studies have reported you are still getting 97% of the benefit. So I just don't see any reason to really push it and blow yourself up long term.

I think if you can run what you are doing, run easy the next day + then go again the day after - keep doing what you are doing. It took me more than a month for a breakthrough, for what is worth. But then the gains kept coming in small drips. 5 seconds here and there off my 5k time and seems to have just kept going.

100% spot on. 70 miles is probably a great cutoff.

Spoc really doing the LR boards a service with useful posts and great insights for the 99% of the ppl that follow along here!

Exactly, the repeatability aspect of this without overcooking/getting injured is so key for this type of system.

This also gives you a really solid (albeit maybe boring system) to start paying attention to other metrics. Not only lactate, but if you are into wearables, you can really start making your own decisions/adjustments on the fly to know when you might actually be fatigued vs under fueled, or the impact that sleep might have on your system on a given day.

The lactate is definitely more attainable these days and not super expensive. Rather than pay an online coach, a lactate meter and some strips with a general plan/guideline will probably take you 90% of where you want to go.

But to Sirpoc's main point, repetition and being able to complete these workouts as often as possible will benefit you the most physiologically and psychologically to get more out of yourself than a 'perfect' program you cant possibly stick to with a real life schedule, committments, family,etc.

I've enjoyed your posts on here before shirt boy on similar topics. This is truly potentially an all time classic thread as it gives a clear indication of how to apply this at non elite level. 99% of people can learn but 99% of people will also fail I think in this system because their pride will have them run to fast. I hope I phrase that correct English is not my first language.

A lot gets posted on these boards to bag on 'double threshold' the 'norwegian model' yada yada. Call it a ham sandwich if you'd like. What all the Norwegians have shown is you can get 95% of the way there on differing focuses of Threshold/LT2 work.

Whether you are prioritizing the 400s at faster than threshold pace but sustaining threshold effort, or extending and slowing it down a bit, you get the specificity using "threshold" as a concept/fulcrum for your approach.

Pat Tiernan's old log under Marcus O Sullivan was a great guide that is scalable for the average person. Marcus used lactate to keeps things steady. A lot of good info out there by him.

In the US, get yourself a Lactate Plus, do your thresholds at 2.5-3.5.

In Europe, get yourself a Lactate Pro 2, do your threshold at 3.0-4.0.

Maximize your limited time and actually enjoy your training and the races that comes from it rather than in spite of it!

As if you can run 400s above threshold pace and be under lactates for 4 and under. Utter fallacy. This due earlier posting all kinds of different paces and he's hitting the same threshold levels? U guys have no idea what Ur doing. Blind leading the blind.

No runner in the right minds would train like this. U guys think almost a century of training and suddenly this new way is the best way?

Just go out and run like we know works. 99% of runners are correct. Push the good days if u feeling good, tempo fun and then hit a vo2 max session or Daniels interval session hard. This will make u faster by far than this Norwegian garbage fantasy stuff.

lol you literally have no idea what youre talking about

you think JI runs his 400s and his 1ks at the same pace? really?

same idiot that chimes in on every threshold thread but cant find his own A with two hands

hope you don’t actually coach anybody for real

go reread Running for Dummies now out in 5th edition

if you cant do 20x400 w/:30r @ 10k-8k pace and cant stay under 4.0 mmol then its not your 10k-8k pace

You should really take your time and at least reply in a measured and thoughtful manner, not like someone who is one arming the steering wheel.

If you cant be bother to spell out "YOU" you are hardly following the theme of this thread, but that's pretty much on brand for you and your 'contributions' to any of these boards.

Feel free to contribute any substantive data you have yourself, or any metric or anything anyone can actual analyze other than your usual conjecture and nonsense.

Half the people on these boards say this training method is 'old', other half claim it's new and overrated. Who cares. Point is it's actually prescriptive with some basic principles people should be able to universally agree with when they've set their egos and personal PRs aside. Again, an area where we could learn a lot from the Norwegians.

And yes, do a 10k. Take that pace. Then do 20x400 w/:30-:40 rest, or about a 2:1 ratio on what your 400 pace would be. You should be under 4.0 mmol on a Lactate Pro 2.

Easy: yep, concept is to run easy at lactate baseline <70%HRmax.

So you do 3E, 3Q, 1L/week, which is one Q session more than the mass does. In my opinion not optimal. May i ask how old you are? (recovery time)

They do 10x1k at around 95%CV and 5x6min at around 90%CV. And yep 98-99%CV for the 400m. I think the 90 and 95%CV runs have to be adjusted down for hobby joggers.

Hi Lexel, I'm 39. I run every day. I've been doing this for maybe 9 months now I think. I missed a few days for a bout of COVID, but that's it.

If you look at what the oldest hobby jogger does, who does singles - I believe he does all the paces also around what I have posted. The younger brothers, who all do way more miles and doubled, I believe ease of the pace a little more. I think for singles, you push it mostly to as close to threshold as you can safely, without risking going over.

I'm going to go back to where I started with this - and talk about CTL. These aren't necessarily 'real' numbers, just using them as a guide as an example.

For instance, if you were doubling you might run the 1ks in the evening and 5x6 in the morning.

The 5x6 might give you a TSS of 65-70 at marathon pace and the 1ks at 95% CV around the same again.

Whereas on singles, myself/ the older brother are running the 1ks around 12-15k pace (faster than 95% CV, and 95% is around HM pace for me) and for me this might create a TSS of 85. All these runs keep you below threshold , but the doubles are much safer, in that range where you might be getting 97% of the benefit for 90% of the effort.

But over time, TSS and CTL wins. You'll obviously create a HUGE amount more doubling, even though you are running slightly easier. I believe, the singles brother and myself - have both decided or accidentally stumbled on the same idea that you want to be able to get every other day, but also want the most TSS. The doubles. I've ran slower but maybe created 140 tss a day rather than 80-85.

What I'm also not doing and neither is the older brother, is the "X" factor session either. Or the hills. Or 10x300 I've heard Jacob do or anything like that.

As I've tried to outline, I'm not trying to copy the professional Norwegian's. Just adapt it, to something manageable and sustainable any hobby jogger could do, if they have the discipline. I think others have point out as well as myself, the issue is most people will run this too fast. Once you do that a few times in a week, it's all over. The next session becomes too hard, or the recovery run isn't enough, then you suddenly find yourself in a hole halfway through the next session.

One thing I've learned from cycling is going on feel is the most outdated concept. You won't see anyone racing or training on feel anymore be hugely successful. The power meter numbers, the training zones, it's all made people better riders based on the science. Running is quite a way behind in all of this, but this is a step in the right direct that there is even the interest on here to talk about it 😊

Really good read, was googling running TSS and brought me here.. I think I know who sirpoc is?. He used to post on cycling forums and was way ahead of his time when it came to the stuff to do with CDA about time trialing? The times he did of time crunched training and marginal gains were insane. If it's the same person? 😕 Theres so many running or tri podcasts out there , if anyone has one I'd love to hear someone get him on there. I'm sure he will keep improving.

This running approach is kind of what I am looking for, something that will push up my threshold from below and stop them injuries. At or just above threshold in that "super" threshold zone than Friel prescribes just beats me up too much.