Did you guys know El G ran 3:26 5 TIMES?!?

Peach Pit wrote:

I don't know how I missed it, but I just found out El G ran 3:26 5 times. I only knew about the fastest 2, but it turns out he ran 3:26 again in '98, and then twice in 3 weeks in 2002, over 4 years removed from his first. Here I was foolishly thinking Jakob was coming in to snag the goat Mid-D crown, when it turns out that it's gonna take another Olympic medal and a handful of 3:26s to even have an argument about it. This dude was crazy.

3:26.00 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Stadio Olimpico, Roma (ITA) 14 JUL 1998

3:26.12 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Bruxelles (BEL) 24 AUG 2001

4 3:26.45 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 12 AUG 1998

6 3:26.89 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 16 AUG 2002

7 3:26.96 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2002

edit - This knowledge reinforced both the idea that he's the greatest mid-d runner ever, and the idea that he was doped to the gills, by about an order of magnitude.

Peach Pit wrote:

I don't know how I missed it, but I just found out El G ran 3:26 5 times. I only knew about the fastest 2, but it turns out he ran 3:26 again in '98, and then twice in 3 weeks in 2002, over 4 years removed from his first. Here I was foolishly thinking Jakob was coming in to snag the goat Mid-D crown, when it turns out that it's gonna take another Olympic medal and a handful of 3:26s to even have an argument about it. This dude was crazy.

3:26.00 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Stadio Olimpico, Roma (ITA) 14 JUL 1998

3:26.12 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Bruxelles (BEL) 24 AUG 2001

4 3:26.45 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 12 AUG 1998

6 3:26.89 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 16 AUG 2002

7 3:26.96 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2002

edit - This knowledge reinforced both the idea that he's the greatest mid-d runner ever, and the idea that he was doped to the gills, by about an order of magnitude.

Aging is B wrote:

Peach Pit wrote:

I don't know how I missed it, but I just found out El G ran 3:26 5 times. I only knew about the fastest 2, but it turns out he ran 3:26 again in '98, and then twice in 3 weeks in 2002, over 4 years removed from his first. Here I was foolishly thinking Jakob was coming in to snag the goat Mid-D crown, when it turns out that it's gonna take another Olympic medal and a handful of 3:26s to even have an argument about it. This dude was crazy.

3:26.00 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Stadio Olimpico, Roma (ITA) 14 JUL 1998

3:26.12 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Bruxelles (BEL) 24 AUG 2001

4 3:26.45 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 12 AUG 1998

6 3:26.89 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 16 AUG 2002

7 3:26.96 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2002

edit - This knowledge reinforced both the idea that he's the greatest mid-d runner ever, and the idea that he was doped to the gills, by about an order of magnitude.

Crazy how rigid that athletic potential barrier is.

I can't imagine training my ass off for 4+ years and never being able to improve my PR.

what would it take wrote:

El G dominates the all time list like nobody else. I know at one point he had run sub 3:30 more times than everyone else in history combined, which is an insane statistic. Jakob definitely has a long way to go to achieve GOAT status, though I do think it’s possible.

El Guerrouj

OG - 15 silver, 15 gold + 5k gold

WC - 15 silver, 15 gold x 3, 15 gold + 5k silver

3:26.00 WR, 3:43.13 WR, 4:44.79 WR

Ingebrigtsen

OG - 15 gold

WC - 15 silver + 5k gold

Jakob is way behind currently, and I haven’t even accounted for El G’s longevity and win streaks (the guy was basically peerless for 8 years). Still, I think Jakob could be right with him by 2024 if he gets double gold at the next two championships and breaks the 1500 record sometime during that period. Obviously that’s a big if (and not his only path to GOAT), but it’s fun to think about.

Seb Coe.. wrote:

what would it take wrote:

El G dominates the all time list like nobody else. I know at one point he had run sub 3:30 more times than everyone else in history combined, which is an insane statistic. Jakob definitely has a long way to go to achieve GOAT status, though I do think it’s possible.

El Guerrouj

OG - 15 silver, 15 gold + 5k gold

WC - 15 silver, 15 gold x 3, 15 gold + 5k silver

3:26.00 WR, 3:43.13 WR, 4:44.79 WR

Ingebrigtsen

OG - 15 gold

WC - 15 silver + 5k gold

Jakob is way behind currently, and I haven’t even accounted for El G’s longevity and win streaks (the guy was basically peerless for 8 years). Still, I think Jakob could be right with him by 2024 if he gets double gold at the next two championships and breaks the 1500 record sometime during that period. Obviously that’s a big if (and not his only path to GOAT), but it’s fun to think about.

Jakob is ahead of El G at the same ages. Through their age 21 seasons EL G has 1x Silver and a 3:31 PR. Jakob has 2x Gold and 1x Silver, and a 3:28 PR.

El G took big jumps at age 22-23 and was pretty much unbeatable for like 7 years, so we will see what Jakob does.

mostlyacyclist wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

A failed drug test does not necessarily imply doping. A passed drug test certainly does not imply a lack of doping. The biological passport went into effect in 2009. EPO testing was crude and whereabouts rules were effectively non existent. Even now, microdosing EPO and using blood transfusions would be quite easy to get away with. With no biological passport, he could have easily had boosted blood values his entire career.

Point being, I can't prove he doped, but saying that athletes have to race clean at the Olympics and if they don't they will be caught is naive. At a minimum, people have a right to be suspicious of the greatest 1500m runner in history, who not only competed at the height of the blood boosting era, but was from a country where numerous athletes have been caught and he was hardly, if ever, tested out of competition.

If we know something produces performance gains (if you want to disagree with this, I don't really know what to tell you. EPO, blood transfusions, and anabolics do enhance athletic performance), and we know many top athletes use them, we must probabilistically assume that the single greatest athlete at a certain event used said measures to enhance performance.

Again, I cannot prove anything, but saying athletes have to race sans drugs at the Olympics is patently false, and even if it were true, it says nothing about what they do out of competition.

Aging is B wrote:

Peach Pit wrote:

I don't know how I missed it, but I just found out El G ran 3:26 5 times. I only knew about the fastest 2, but it turns out he ran 3:26 again in '98, and then twice in 3 weeks in 2002, over 4 years removed from his first. Here I was foolishly thinking Jakob was coming in to snag the goat Mid-D crown, when it turns out that it's gonna take another Olympic medal and a handful of 3:26s to even have an argument about it. This dude was crazy.

3:26.00 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Stadio Olimpico, Roma (ITA) 14 JUL 1998

3:26.12 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Bruxelles (BEL) 24 AUG 2001

4 3:26.45 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 12 AUG 1998

6 3:26.89 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Zürich (SUI) 16 AUG 2002

7 3:26.96 Hicham EL GUERROUJ Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2002

edit - This knowledge reinforced both the idea that he's the greatest mid-d runner ever, and the idea that he was doped to the gills, by about an order of magnitude.

Crazy how rigid that athletic potential barrier is.

I can't imagine training my ass off for 4+ years and never being able to improve my PR.

mostlyacyclist wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

A failed drug test does not necessarily imply doping. A passed drug test certainly does not imply a lack of doping. The biological passport went into effect in 2009. EPO testing was crude and whereabouts rules were effectively non existent. Even now, microdosing EPO and using blood transfusions would be quite easy to get away with. With no biological passport, he could have easily had boosted blood values his entire career.

Point being, I can't prove he doped, but saying that athletes have to race clean at the Olympics and if they don't they will be caught is naive. At a minimum, people have a right to be suspicious of the greatest 1500m runner in history, who not only competed at the height of the blood boosting era, but was from a country where numerous athletes have been caught and he was hardly, if ever, tested out of competition.

If we know something produces performance gains (if you want to disagree with this, I don't really know what to tell you. EPO, blood transfusions, and anabolics do enhance athletic performance), and we know many top athletes use them, we must probabilistically assume that the single greatest athlete at a certain event used said measures to enhance performance.

Again, I cannot prove anything, but saying athletes have to race sans drugs at the Olympics is patently false, and even if it were true, it says nothing about what they do out of competition.