Official 2023 Ivy indoor heps discussion thread

likely multiple sub 4 milers if they go fast, but it's very unlikely they'd TT it and see who has the best fitness. especially since they may be running multiple events and/or running the prelim before, I think it'll be a jog until 800. I'm more excited to see outdoor heps, but I think there will be about 5-6 competing to win - 1 from Princeton, 1 from Dartmouth, possibly 3 fom Harvard, and like 1-2 from the rest.

3000m will be good but it'll probably be negative splitted pretty significantly - last year I believe the 1500m approximate splits were 4:10 and 3:50. However, I saw that Cornell had someone run 7:55 which is decent, but that was nearly perfectly paced.

Winning times:

Mile - 4:04, splits of 2:05 (809) and then 1:59

3000m - 8:02, 1500m splits of 4:14 and 3:48

5000m - 13:45, 1600m splits of 4:19, 4:25, and 4:32, with a final 200 in 29

It should be noted that meet record for the mile was set on the Dartmouth track in 2014, 4:01.69 by Steve Mangan. It would be cool to see someone run a sub-4 mile on Dartmouth's flat circle of a track in a few weeks, but I think the odds will be very low as the men tend to go more towards tactical and it's hard to go that fast on Dartmouth's track.

I also think the meet records will hold in both the men's 3k (7:56.84 from 1983) and 5k (13:42.88, set last year).

My guesses for winning men times: 4:08, 8:05, 13:55.

Harvard has three guys entered with sub-4 mile times at BU Scarlet and White invite this weekend (Henz, Blanks, and Iverson), with a 4th seeded at 4:01 (Rose). I'm curious if any of them will end up breaking 4.

I was surprised to see two Princeton guys - Stanley and Miller - race each other to a 4:01 time at HYP last weekend at Harvard's track. That dual meet typically doesn't result in fast mile times.

Indoor Heps Meet Top 10 Mile times

4:01.69, Steve Mangan (Dartmouth, 2014)
4:02.00, John Gregorek (Columbia, 2014)
4:02.26, Michael Williams (Princeton, 2014)
4:02.83, Will Geoghegan (Dartmouth, 2014)
4:03.42, Sam Ellis (Princeton, 2022)
4:03.64, Michael Danzi (Columbia, 2022)
4:03.87, Daniel O’Brien (Princeton, 2022) (done in the prelims)
4:04.11, Ray Sellaro (Penn, 2022)
4:04.26, Joe Ewing (Harvard, 2022)
4:04.34, Courtney Jaworski (Penn, 2006)

So, in case anyone is wondering what the Indoor Heps meet records are for the distance events... here's the updated one that include the 2022 additions and some notes on who is competing this season.

Men's Mile Meet Top 10
4:01.69, Steve Mangan (Dartmouth, 2014)
4:02.00, John Gregorek (Columbia, 2014)
4:02.26, Michael Williams (Princeton, 2014)
4:02.83, Will Geoghegan (Dartmouth, 2014)
4:03.42, Sam Ellis (Princeton, 2022)
4:03.64, Michael Danzi (Columbia, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
4:03.87, Daniel O’Brien (Princeton, 2022) (set in prelims)
4:04.11, Ray Sellaro (Penn, 2022)
4:04.26, Joe Ewing (Harvard, 2022) <- competed in 2022 XC
4:04.34, Courtney Jaworski (Penn, 2006)

Men's 3km Meet Top 10
7:56.84, Jim Sapienza (Dartmouth, 1983)
8:00.09, Acer Iverson (Harvard, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
8:00.89, Jim Sapienza (Dartmouth, 1985)
8:01.52, Matthew Pereira (Harvard, 2022)
8:02.09, Ronnie Harris (Navy, 1987)
8:02.40, Ed Trippas (Princeton, 2022)
8:02.61, David Olds (Princeton, 1983)
8:02.89, David Vorbach (Columbia, 2022)
8:03.05, Rishabh Prakash (Cornell, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
8:03.09, Will Daley (Dartmouth, 2022)

Men's 5km Meet Top 10
13:42.88, Acer Iverson (Harvard, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
13:45.07, Matthew Pereira (Harvard, 2022)
13:47.05, David Vorbach (Columbia, 2022)
13:49.27, Tyler Berg (Columbia, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
13:49.34, David Melville (Harvard, 2022)
13:53.22, Jason Stewart (Army, 1994)
13:58.22, Brian Clas (Cornell, 1994)
13:58.67, James Leakos (Harvard, 2014)
13:58.83, Maksim Korolev (Harvard, 2014)
13:59.06, Kevin Dooney (Yale, 2014)

Women's Mile Meet Top 10
4:32.42, Abbey D'Agostino (Dartmouth, 2013)
4:36.57, Dana Giordano (Dartmouth, 2015)
4:39.89, Maia Ramsden (Harvard, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
4:40.07, Anna Juul (Harvard, 2022)
4:40.28, Abbey D'Agostino (Dartmouth, 2014)
4:40.72, Erin Gillingham (Columbia, 2013)
4:40.92, Olivia Sadler (Columbia, 2015)
4:41.02, Emily Shearer (Cornell, 2013)
4:41.62, Greta Feldman (Princeton, 2013)
4:42.98, Molly Renfer (Harvard, 2015)

Women's 3km Meet Top 10
9:09.19, Kayley DeLay (Yale, 2022)
9:09.49, Jenny Stricker (Harvard, 1983)
9:14.53, Fiona Max (Princeton, 2022) <- has competed in 2023 season
9:16.37, Dana Giordano (Dartmouth, 2016)
9:16.70, Rachel Sorna (Cornell, 2013)
9:16.74, Natalie Schudrowitz (Brown, 2016)
9:16.85, Margaret Wynne (Yale, 1983)
9:16.97, Lindsay Donaldson (Yale, 2005)
9:17.10, Courtney Smith (Harvard, 2016)
9:17.12, Phoebe Anderson (Columbia, 2022) <- competed in 2022 XC

Women's 5km Meet Top 10
15:47.02, Abbey D'Agostino (Dartmouth, 2013)
15:55.03, Caroline Bierbaum (Columbia, 2005)
15:56.63, Rachel Sorna (Cornell, 2013)
16:00.9h, Kate Wiley (Harvard, 1983)
16:01.51, Megan Curham (Princeton, 2015)
16:07.19, Katie Kellner (Cornell, 2013)
16:07.26, Judy Pendergast (Harvard, 2017)
16:08.70, Abbey D'Agostino (Dartmouth, 2014)
16:08.80, Natalie Tanner (Columbia, 2017)
16:12.20, Megan Curham (Princeton, 2014)

Definitely the best team Cornell has had in years. Kersulis has been lighting it up in the sprints, and their distance has been quite strong, already throwing down top times of 2:22, 3:58, and 7:55 (all different athletes). I don't necessarily think they'll win, but something to watch out for.

All events - men
1 Harvard 177.5
2 Princeton 146
3 Cornell 81
4 Dartmouth 60
5 Columbia 57.5
6 Penn 36
7 Brown 35
8 Yale 24

No relays - men (as not all schools have contested all relays)

1 Harvard 167.5
2 Princeton 122
3 Cornell 71
4 Columbia 40.5
5 Dartmouth 38
6 Penn & Brown 34
8 Yale 20

All events - women
1 Harvard 189.33
2 Princeton 121
3 Penn 79.33
4 Dartmouth 63.33
5 Columbia 52.33
6 Brown 50
7 Cornell 37.67
8 Yale 27

No relays - women (as not all schools have contested all relays)
1 Harvard 178.33
2 Princeton 103
3 Penn 71.33
4 Columbia 47.33
5 Brown 44
6 Dartmouth 43.33
7 Cornell 31.67
8 Yale 8

I doubt there will be much change over the rankings based on the competition for this upcoming weekend, so I think this may be the favorite order going into Heps on 2/25.

Good news - the live results will be through leonetiming.com. Their results pages have typically done a great job providing updates within the contested event for all events.

Discuss

Aren't you going to add anything to said discussion?

It looks like that scoring calculator assumes some pretty unlikely event combinations for individual athletes? I don’t see an option to limit distance athletes to 1-2 events, for example. Is that possible to do?

Within that website, there isn't a way to limit which athletes do which events. You could do your own scoring on the side. But yes, I don't see any distance people doing the mile-3k-5k triple.

For Harvard, I could see Blanks and Iverson doing the 3k-5k double, while letting Henz focus on the mile.

I can see that mile being a fast one given the number of sub-4s in the group and I'm sure some of them want to try to make the top 16 NCAA cutoff with the flat->bank time conversion. But I'd say more often than not, it will be a tactical mile final.

Projected indoor Heps scoring, 2/19/23, 4 athletes per team per event, based on TFRRS rankings

All events - men
1 Harvard 177.5
2 Princeton 148
3 Cornell 81.5
4 Dartmouth 58
5 Columbia 57.5
6 Penn 35.5
7 Brown 35
8 Yale 24

No relays - men (as not all schools have contested all relays)

1 Harvard 167.5
2 Princeton 122
3 Cornell 71.5
4 Columbia 40.5
5 Dartmouth 38
6 Brown 34

7 Penn 33.5
8 Yale 20

All events - women
1 Harvard 189.33
2 Princeton 118
3 Penn 76.33
4 Dartmouth 63.33
5 Brown 58

6 Columbia 52.33
7 Cornell 35.67
8 Yale 27

No relays - women (as not all schools have contested all relays)
1 Harvard 178.33
2 Princeton 100
3 Penn 68.33
4 Brown 52

5 Columbia 47.33
6 Dartmouth 43.33
7 Cornell 29.67
8 Yale 8

If I have time this week, I could try to work on updated scoring based on reasonable expectations of entries (entries won't be shared until Friday late PM after the coaches seeding meeting). Anyone have any ideas on what combos we could expect from various athletes? Someone else is welcome to do their own projections.

Devastating that the Cornell women project so low.

So, looking at the cloudtrainingsystems.com meet scorer, I tried to guess what kinds of doubles/triples that we would most likely see, based on athlete's history, current ranking of SBs, and schedule of meet events (posted on ivyleague.com). I have no idea who else will join the distance events if they don't already have a SB listed on TFRRS (Princeton has minimal men in the current rankings, but I expect for them to include some in there).

So here's my predictions (cloudtrainingsystems has a lot of sprint and jumping doubles, but I'm only including the athletes who I've thinned down) (I'm not guessing relays or additions to long distance events). thoughts?:

Graham Blanks (H) - ranked 1 in mile, 3k, 5k and 6 in 1k; expect to race 3k, 5k

Acer Iverson (H) - ranked 2 in 3k, 5k and 5 in mile; expect to race 3k, 5k

Vivien Henz (H) - ranked 3 in mile and 10 in 800; expect to race mile

John Minicus (H) - ranked 11 in HH and 4 in heptathlon; expect to compete in heptathlon

Samuel Rodman (Pr) - ranked 1 in 800 and 2 in 500; expect to race 500

Dimon Anderson (Pr) - ranked 3 in 400, 500; expect to race 500

Duncan Miller (Pr) - ranked 10 in 1k and 2 in mile; expect to race mile

Ethan Reese (Pr) - ranked 4 in 800 and 10 in 1k; expect to race 800

Tomas Kersulis (Cor) - ranked 7 in 60, 1 in 200 and 400; expect to race 200 and 400

Rishabh Prakash (Cor) - ranked 7 in mile, 4 in 3k and 5k; expect to race 3k and 5k

Damian Hackett (Cor) - ranked 11 in mile, 3 in 1k, expect to race 1k

Kegan Mancabelli (Cor) - ranked 12 in PV, 5 in heptathlon; expect to compete in heptathlon

DJ Matusz (D) - ranked 4 in 500m, 6 in 800m, 4 in 1k; expect to race 1k

Justin O'Toole (Col) - ranked 2 in 800, 1 in 1k; expect to race 1k

Devon Davey (Col) - ranked 4 in 400, 10 in 500; expect to race 400

Michael Danzi (Col) - ranked 5 in 1k, 9 in mile; expect to race 1k

Izzy Gourdos (H) - ranked 4 in 60m, 1 in 200, HH, LJ, pentathlon; expect to compete in 200, HH, and LJ

Maia Ramsden (H) - ranked 1 in 1k, mile, and 3k; expect to do mile and 3k

Victoria Bossong (H) - ranked 1 in 500m, 6 in 800m; expect to race 500

Jada Johnson (H) - ranked 12 in HH, 10 in HJ, 3 in pentathlon; expect to do pentathlon

Fabiola Belbi (H) - ranked 10 in HH, 5 in penthatlon; expect to do penthatlon

Margaret Liebich (Pr) - ranked 4 in 1k, 2 in mile; expect to race mile

Margaret Hock (Pr) - ranked 5 in 800, 2 in 1k; expect to race 1k

Abby Loveys (Pr) - ranked 11 in mile, 3 in 3k; expect to do 3k

Maeve Stiles (P) - ranked 12 in mile, 4 in 3k, 1 in 5k; expect to do 3k and 5k

Bronwyn Patterson (P) - ranked 4 in 800, 6 in 1k, 9 in mile; expect to do 800

Julia Fenerty (D) - ranked 5 in 500, 2 in 800, 3 in mile; expect to do 800 and mile

Anya Hirschfeld (D) - ranked 3 in 1k, 4 in mile; expect to do 1k

Jada Jones (D) - ranked 9 in 60, 5 in 200, 3 in 400, 7 in 500; expect to do 200 and 400

Bella Pietrasiewicz (D) - ranked 8 in 800, 5 in 1k; expect to do 1k

Chiamaka Odenigbo (B) - ranked 11 in HH, 1 in HJ, 7 in TJ, 2 in pentathlon; expect to do HJ and pentathlon

Lauren Yeboah-Kodie (B) - ranked 8 in HH, 5 in LJ, 3 in TJ; expect to do LJ and TJ

Victoria Patterson (Col) - ranked 10 in mile, 2 in 3k; expect to do 3k

Sydney Goldson (Col) - ranked 9 in 400, 3 in 500; expect to do 500

Tiffany Bautista (col) - ranked 4 in HJ, 12 in LJ, 10 in TJ, 8 in pentathlon; expect to do HJ and pentathlon

Reyne Rodrigues (Cor) - ranked 11 in 400, 4 in 500; expect to do 500

Samantha Friborg (Y) - ranked 3 in 800, 7 in 1k, 5 in mile; expect to do 800 and mile

Where are the entries?

Entries won't be posted until after the coaches meeting (usually scheduled for Friday late afternoons), where the coaches will share their competition rosters. I'd say check the live results website around 8pm tonight.

Entries up. I’ll lookin detail later and see if I can do an updated projected score

Are these botany-focused colleges? How do their academics compare to NAU?

I started it. If anyone wants to score all the events, chime in here:

docs.google.com

Heps Scoring 2023 Indoors

Men Men Harvard,Princeton,Brown,Columbia,Cornell,Dartmouth,Penn,Yale 60,18,12 200,8,10, 400,10,1 500,10,8 800,0,6 1k,0,10 mile,9,16 3k,18,3 5k,18,0 60h,12,7 4x400,8,10 4x8,2,6 dmr,1,10 HJ,8,0 vault,2,10 LJ,8,10 TJ,14,0 Shot,1...

Link:docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N0TLtf...

It used to drive me nuts there isn't a software program that does it. I only had time to do the Princeton and Harvard on the men's side. I wanted to see if Harvard was really going to win.

Answer: Yes.

Harvard 170. Princeton 138.

And I gave Rodman 10 points for the 1k (he's going to win even though he has no seed time). Speaking of Rodman, I thought Princeton would double him if they thought they had a shot at the team title. He's only in the 1k. The 500 is a cakewalk huge point event for someone that talented so me that's kind of them saying, we need some help.

Fun anecdote. I remember my first year not coaching in 2013. Rutger Admirand - who had run 148 as a freshman - called me up after running 1:59 the week before Heps at home (1:55 was his sb) and said, "Coach. They are trying to make me go to Heps. I don't want to go. I'm not in shape and don't want to take someone's spot."

I lauhged and said, "You don't need to be in shape. Run the 500 and I guarntee you'll get no worse the 2nd." Sure enough, he ran 63.20 and was second.

Mr. Rodman, be thankful you are a Tiger. I guarantee you back in the day my boss Nathan Taylor would have doubled you. Now getting injured in the midst of the 800/3k double is why Jimmy Wyner never made NCAAs indoors, but that mindset got us 8 straight outdoor titles.

I think it would have been great if Princeton had entered Rodman in both and then also entered Iosivas in 2-3 events including the multi. The Harvard coaches would have been, "Oh sh**. They are coming to war."

Then scratched them at the coaches meeting. Instead Iosvas is getting ready for the NFL combine.