Magness & Marcus Recent Pod Episode on vo2 Max Triaininv

Ooops, it might have been helpful to everyone to include the link to the episode..

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Science of Running - Episode 192: You Don’t Need As Much Vo2Max Work as You Think!

Science of Running

Vo2max work! 800s at 3k pace, 1ks at 5k down to 2-mile pace. We all know the workouts. We include them all of the time. In some training programs, especially for high-school, they are the bread and butter of the program. In t...

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My hs coach used VO2 max work very, very sparingly. It’s difficult enough that you’ll burn out if you do too much. Also, 5ks that occurred nearly weekly were sufficient until just before the peak.

- He viewed just faster than 5k (probably 4.5k) as the “prime” VO2 max pace. 3k is too fast and you’re racing it often, while going just faster than 5k makes a XC race feel effortless
- Don’t need too much distance - either do 5x1k or something like 16x400 at 3k for efficiency or 6x1k at 4k-ish pace for VO2 max stimulus. This was a favorite workout of mine - if I’d run mid-low 2:50s comfortably, I’d be in shape to run sub 9

- cv work as well: about 8k pace. It’s faster than tempo so you need more recovery and do less, but it improves your threshold some while (more importantly) also improving your vo2 max as well

- almost no mile paced work

- “comfort is the most important” - meaning that we’d run something like 3x3x500 slightly slower than mile OR 3x3x300 slightly slower than 800 (just faster than mile) on occasion with 1 minute rest between reps and 2 between sets. If you’re able to stay comfortable running at fast paces (for example, I’d do 500s at 80-81 or 300s right around 45), a race will not feel difficult at all until like 1/3rd to go

Afraid I have not listened to that podcast in quite some time, but your comments are interesting. What kind of training did they suggest to increase VO2 max? Long and hard? Short rest or continuous runs?

I listened to that podcast for a while, but grew frustrated with the hosts strange reticence to speak plainly on how they coach and what training they find most useful in certain situations. In other words, I encountered limited substance. Maybe they have changed?

Steve Magness is probably right. I haven't listened to the podcast, but he addressed similar issues in his blog years ago.

It's unrealistic to expect to increase your maximal cardiac output. But stroke volume increases as you age, whilst heart rate gradually slows. The two variables maintain cardiac output.

However, the good news is that your basic endurance conditioning can improve for many years with the right training.

Well, it's a great misunderstanding by many that running maxVO2 intervals almost every week would lead to stagnation. The trick is to run just short reps like 300- 600m @ 5 k race pace and use individual 'automatic' rest by easy walking . This will lead to maximized stroke volume and a very strong heart.Then further we have to understand that reaching individual highest maxO2 is a total concept including to also maximize Lactate threshold and LSD ( Long Steady Distance) . If we take Jakob Ingebrigtsen as an example of this to use short reps at maxVO2 effort frequent almost every week he does them 20 x 200m @ 5 k effort on hill reps. The short reps .@ 5 k effort aren't there mainly to raise maxO2 because he has already reached that individual level . They are there mainly to maintain his maxO2 as long as possible but more important to make his energy and biomechanic efficiency at that 5 k pace improved. This I have discussed some years ago with Jakob's Ph mr L-I Tjelta and he just agreed with me. This is the way of looking to the case and benefit of running short maxVO2 reps frequently.The fact they are relatively short makes them easy to do week after week year round, no stagnation. 🧙‍♂️🇸🇪

Magness and Marcus are the least qualified people to speak about training. I'm shocked anyone even still listens to them. Whatever those two recommend, you should do the polar opposite.

I generally dislike Magness and Marcus but they have their moments. I tend to agree with them about VO2 max training. Races will do the trick. Another poster said that Jakob does 20x200m hills at 5k effort. The hills are at faster than 5k effort. More like mile effort. Doing short reps, like 200s at mile pace provides a VO2 stimulus. So does threshold, to a much lesser degree. And CV. The point is, training doesn’t exist in isolation. Doing reps at threshold or CV or VO2 doesn’t just work that specific stimulus. I prefer shorter reps at 3k-5k pace and relatively lower volumes, like they mention on the pod. Unless you’re very fit, doing hard VO2 sessions take a while to recover from. Even if you are fit, they can put you in a hole. I think American coaches are bad at this because they are tied to a specific schedule. 7 days or 10 days. Whatever it is. Canova does a great job of giving his athletes enough recovery. They might hit a hard session, then jog for several days after until they’re ready to go again.

Side note - I listened to the pod; what is flux training that Marcus keeps talking about?

Flux training uses faster recoveries, like intervals with a "float" recovery or old school fartleks (it seems they made up the term?). I think it gives a good bang for your buck in terms of stimulus/volume.

Thanks for that. Should they still use short reps?

A few years ago, somebody posted Karissa Schweizer’s training when she was on Bowerman. They did surprisingly few “super hero” sessions, like the VO2 max that we are discussing, but a lot of 200s, 300s and 400s at like 3k ish pace with 100m jog recovery. Not sure if that is the same thing but would have a similar effect. Shorter reps at VO2 pace but the short recoveries between break it up. So sets of 4x300 with 100m jog recovery could have a similar stimulus to 1200m reps but way less taxing on the body due to the 100m jogs every 300m. This could also be a good way to set the body up for harder VO2 sessions when the time comes, in the case of Bowerman.

Do they still coach pros? It’s been quite a while since I recognized anyone under their watch.

I don’t know about Magness but Jon Marcus no longer coaches.

good

I'm not a big fan of Magness but his association with Marcus completely shatters any credibility he might have.

And the best training intensity to improve VO2max, seems to be the intensity at VO2max (vVo2max). Not 5k pace! 5k pace is maybe a good compromise for maintaining Vo2max.

But also high volume low intensity training is known to improve VO2max.

Iexel wrote:

VO2max can be improved by up to 100% (e.g from 40 to 80ml/kg/min for men). And it seems to be (highly) trainable.

Don't be so ridiculous. Mark Burnley makes no such claim in that video.

Dude went on and on about how he was revolutionizing distance training, claiming everyone else was doing it wrong. Then, his only athlete (Eleanor Fulton) leaves him and has her best year EVER as a result.

I don't know about Marcus, but Magness pointed out in his blog many years ago that absolute VO2max is at its highest at the time we stop growing and then declines as our metabolism is at its highest during the final growth spurt in our late teens to early 20s.

He highlighted the work of Oxygen Kinetics expert Professor Andy Jones demonstrating this in Paula Radcliffe.

Further improvements from our early higher metabolism are due to improvements in endurance and efficiency, not oxygen uptake.

Magness was debunking a persistent myth which many people cling to.

I listened to it. Agreed with most all they had to say. If someone has got a better free podcast out there that imparts such varied applicable content than Science of Running, please share.

I did not said he mentioned that. Maybe read better next time. :)