Double Threshold Skill Barrier?

Thanks!

One more question though, on the days of the double threshold workouts, how many hours typically, are you putting between the two sessions? 9am and 3pm? Something traditional like that?

what school do you go to?

15:05 should be able to walk on most teams, right?

AM sessions: always the same, longer and slower: 5x6min, 3×10min, or any ranger from 6 to 10minutes interval length (aiming for lower lactate value).

Length depend for the which distance you are training and also how you response well to the shorter or longer reps. For HM & M Marius mentioned that need longer reps more and continuos thresholds(tempos).

PM sessions: faster and shorter: 10x3min; 5x2min; 20-25×400m; 30x1min; 40×45s; 60x30s; (aiming for your laboratory threshold LT2//longer reps like 3,2 min for range LT-0.2 mmol; for shorter reps like 80s-30s for range LT and slightly above). By playing with the rest ratio, volume, interval length here you can manage to run, lets say 25x400m at pace 7K and by lactate it will be a still threshold type workout. Many people get confused here, because they believe that workout at 5K-3K pace cannot be a threshold workout: volume, rest ratio, interval length make a magic and lactate confirms it very well. In one week there are 2 different kinds of PM sessions: one with 3, 2 min interval duration and another one with 30s-90s interval duration, with this combo you have 3 kind of speed per week: MP faster/slower, Threshold faster/slower, 5-15K range pace. But all 3 workouts fall in the threshold range workouts by lactate.

Personally for myself the hardest session to perform by lactate is PM session like 10x3min with 1/3 rest ratio.In the beginning even with a lactate meter I few times exceeded a lactate... because usually PM sessions is always going better, easier, lighter after AM, need to be very carefull, maybe change rest ratio to give yourself more rest, one of the option here.

Surely the unpopular opinion here, but I feel these "double threshold" sessions are overrated for 90% of runners. This method was popularized by athletes who run low or sub 13 for 5k and make training/recovering their full time job - it is a way for them to get that extra 1% better for world class level competition and they have built volume over several years to be able to run 30+ miles at just slower than threshold each week.

If you want to emulate this, start with building toward 4-6 miles of threshold in single sessions 2-3 times per week. After that is manageable, add some easy effort doubles to those threshold days. Finally after months/years and hopefully responding well with faster racing, add some quality to the double runs and slowly build volume.

The biggest thing most of us can take away from athletes doing these sessions is to slow down on threshold days :)

Good podcast from Magness on the subject here:

scienceofrunning.com

Episode 189: The Norwegian Model of Lactate Threshold Training

Norway has had a lot of endurance success lately. From the Ingebrigtsen’s to triathletes winning major events, the small country of Norway has taken the endurance world by storm. We break dow…

Link:www.scienceofrunning.com/2022/11/episo...

I prefer having about 6-8 hours in between, but it depends on my classes. I'd sometimes run at 11 and 5, but there was one time I was busy and ran at 11 and 9.

It's typically top 10 or just outside that in the NCAA year after year. I'm also really focusing on my academics so I wouldn't have the time.

I think that is the popular opinion. Not many people are running doubles and even fewer are at the point where they need to go from 40 mins of work to 60...

This is a very informative thread; thanks again for all the replies!

Given this information, I think I will stick to single threshold sessions for now... I am currently a 14:45 5k'er implementing single-block thresholds twice per week on 85-95 mpw.

After all of these responses, I was considering purchasing a lactate meter testing kit to experiment with double threshold training, but the cheapest kit I can find is $200 US dollars. Unfortunately, I cannot comfortably make that purchase being a college student.

Maybe I'm missing something but it does not seem like any testing kits are available for cheaper.

The amateur Ingebrigtsen, doesn't even do double thresholds. He typically does 3 single threshold sessions per week. Typical sessions are 3x3000m, 5x2000m, 10x1000m. Always 1 minute recovery, no matter the length of the rep. There are exceptions, but that is what he typically does.

I'm not sure if "skill" is the right word.

The barriers seem to be more in relation to time, money (lactate meter), and discipline/suppression of ego.

With that being said, I think 99% of runners would get more benefit from sticking to the basics: 1 Vo2 Max workout, 1 Lactate Threshold, 1 Long Run per week, supplemented with a lot of easy (and I mean easy) running in between.

The double thresholds work for the Ingebrigtsens and other elites because they are looking to maximise their load. That is, they've been running for more than 10 years, have reached the upper limits of their total volume, and are now trying to build as much intensity into their training as they can, while minimising fatigue and the risk of injury.

Most runners aren't even close to reaching the upper limits of their potential volume - but yet they seemingly want to jump 10 years ahead, because double thresholds are trendy right now. It's the same force that drives people to do ridiculous workouts, that aren't all that productive, but somehow generate more likes on Strava (or other platforms).

In short, stick to what works best- most of the time. Get all that you can out of that before moving onto some new and fashionable training system.

Most runners will breakdown doing vo2max work every week for 16+ weeks. Hence the tinman approach of doing CV type work. Now if doing the slightly less volume of CV work versus the higher volume slower intensity threshold work is worth it is something science can't answer. And if you start talking about 14 or 21 day cycles it gets even harder ..

DT is effective. But so are plenty of other programs it gets hard to separate out how much is talent versus training.

I'm sure you've gotten a lot of good advice, but I'll just throw in my experience.

Background Info:

I run between 65-75 miles per week, 1.5-2 hours easy on the bike for cross-training. I do four strength sessions of about 45 minutes per week.

Age/Sex: M, 45
Peak Mileage (Ever): 90mpw in 6 days.
Marathon PR: 2:42 (2021)
Threshold Pace/HR at Threshold: Around 6:05, per recent lactate test, 165bpm

Here's a sample weekly schedule.

Monday:

AM - 8 miles easy, with 4x30 hill sprints (fast, relaxed effort)
PM - 4-5 miles easy.

Tuesday:

AM - 5x6 minutes threshold (about 10 miles total)
PM - 4x5 minutes threshold (done on treadmill with incline set to 4-8%, speed varied to get to threshold effort)

Wednesday:

AM - 5 miles recovery pace
PM - 30 - 60 minutes easy (Zone 1-2) bike, depending on how I'm feeling.

Thursday (AM alternates every other week):

AM (Week 1) - 10x3 minutes threshold, about 10 miles total
AM (Week 2) - 10x30-60 second hill sprints, run at hard effort with walk down recovery, about 10 miles total.
PM (Week 1&2) - 4x5 minutes threshold (done on treadmill with incline set to 4-8%, speed varied to get threshold effort)

Friday:

AM - 5 miles recovery pace
PM - 30-60 minutes easy (Zone 1/2) bike ride.

Saturday:

Long run 12-16 miles. On weeks where I do hill sprints on Thursday I add some quality into the long run in the form of a block of steady state running (over hills where possible).

Sunday:

Completely off.

Other Info/Thoughts:

Strength work is done on Monday, Tuesday, Friday, and Saturday, with an upper/lower body split.

I find that this generally gives me 70 miles of running, with 90 minutes - 2 hours of cross-training on the bike.

I monitor my threshold efforts using heart rate and RPE, based on a lactate test I had done in a lab. So, I use my HR at lactate threshold, and try to stay a few beats below that until the last rep, where I just try to maintain my pace. It's not perfect, but I think it works OK. That and doing the second workout of the day as a treadmill incline session has kept me injury free (along with the strength work).

For me, this is a demanding schedule, especially with a job, kids, and other commitments. Honestly, I think it's a little too demanding, as I'm feeling a bit worn down, having done this since November. I have seen results from it, for sure. But I think the hill sprints are not sufficient to develop or even fully maintain speed. I'm currently planning on alternating double threshold weeks with easy weeks where I focus on speed development, with strides, short reps (long recovery), and hill sprints. I would then add some quality steady-state running on the non-double threshold weeks.

Sorry for the overly long post, but hopefully someone finds it interesting.

I don't think PRs matter as much since two runners can run 75mpw & have different potentials in the sport. A sub-2:40 marathoner that needs 100mpw to do it & has stalled out there might find some improvement from the double threshold sessions.

I would say that something around 70mpw is about right. PRs from elite to sub-elite. Here maybe sub-elite means that you can qualify for Boston easily but don't have a shot at an OTQ.

The goal is to extend how much time you're spending at threshold without putting yourself in a ditch. So instead of a mid-week 12x1k session, you're gonna do 5-6 x mile @ T in the morning and 16-20 x 400m in the evening. 9-11 miles of work versus 7. That should be the key workout for the week and I would put at least 2 easy days on either end of it. I would only do 1 more day of faster running (probably in the long run) for a non-elite going after one of these sessions.

The Daniels 10% guideline is per workout, not per week. So someone running 50 mpw would do max 5 miles at T for a single workout. Not unreasonable to do that more than once a week. In fact, I've done it.

If you are having difficulty recovering from a Daniels-style T workout, then you are running it too hard. He describes it as comfortably hard and ballparks it around 25-30s slower than 5k pace.

During my best days, I don't think I could've doubled with 5 at T pace in am and
5 at T pace pm on 50 mpw, but 5 T monday and 5 T wednesday would not be difficult.

Daniels 10% guideline is not per workout, but overal weekly threshold volume, 2nd edition, page 46. I don't have a third edition, maybe he changed there?

Canefis, how does the saturday hill workout feel for you? Do you ever get sore after it like you would after let's say 8x10s all out hill sprints?

I experimented with double threshold workouts this fall with a good degree of success, in my opinion. For reference, I am in my early 30s with over 15 years of running at a high level and consistent 70 miles a week or more for most of that time. I am a 15 min 5k runner now...still within shouting distance of my college PRs, so I am still what most would consider a high level runner. I am not sure how well double thresholds would translate for someone of lower ability...for example, a 16:30 5k runner who also runs 70 mpw. My thought is that it's the ability to handle mileage/volume rather than pure running talent that is important. There are plenty of 14:30 5k guys who would probably crumble if they tried this system.

Biggest key is that you absolutely have to run these workouts at a true threshold pace or you'll be cooked after more than a week or two. To combat the natural tendency to run tempos too fast, I did a lot of my double workouts on the treadmill.

QFE.

I disagree with a lot of what Magness and Marcus say but their discussion on threshold training is a good one. They’ve also talked about getting the most out of a stimulus before moving to the next stimulus. Another poster mentioned the 10 year progression. Very few people, even elites, have a steady progression. There are hiccups and sometimes big jumps. If you’ve never done more than 5 miles of threshold volume before, you can get a lot out of bumping to 6-7 for several months and increasing overall mileage before doing double thresholds. Remember, Jakob lost the 1500m at world champs to a guy that like does 1/3 of the threshold volume he does each week ;)

I did the double threshold workouts for quite a while with no success at all. I would do 3x10 minutes on 1 minute recovery on my 8M run to work in the morning on one day, 7x3 minutes on 1 minute recovery on my return, on another day do 5x6 minutes (1 min) in the morning and 7x3 minutes or 10x2 minutes in the evening. On the weekend, I'd do one 3x10 or 7x3 or the like, for 5 threshold runs per week, while typically averaging 16-18 miles per day. My speed on these was totally inadequate. I needed measured distances to run speeds that would allow me to improve.