Which is better for endurance - long run or tempo run

Total volume of weekly mileage is also important.

What is your mileage? That was the key component in me lowering my 5K time. I was at 50 mpw and couldn’t break 17:30. once I got my mileage up to an average of 75-80 per week my 5K time dropped.

Also workouts like 8 X 1200 at tempo pace with the last two reps a bit harder than the previous six helped a lot. I also did the standard 5x1000 at 5K pace, 4.5 mile tempos, 45 second sprinting hill repeats.

Long runs were 16 miles.

Long runs are so un-important that for most runners you could, and probably should not do them.

There are seven days in a week. Master the other six days before bothering with long runs.

If the Long Run is styled as a workout, ie a progressive long run, with the last 3 miles @ tempo, and you can recover effectively enough to do another workout after an easy day after a long run, nothing wrong with a long run.

Well tomorrow I'm going to do a 7 or 8 mile tempo at marathon pace and see if that affects things. I haven't been doing the tempo runs for a while because I lost faith in them. I've been doing lots of 6x800, 4x mile, 12x400, 8x600 etc and it has improved my pace without question but my endurance just can't keep up so I'm not much better off than before. Instead of running 18:30ish I'm at 18:00-18:10.

How about incorporating some tempo-paced running into your long runs, particularly at the end?

the most important part is to pound out a 2 hr long run all out brah

This is interesting. I became very good at cycling time trialing and posted some pretty good results and I never bothered with a "long ride". Thinking as I only had so much training to do, it was bad bang for my buck.

Im not sure what is classed as a long run in running terms. But I've never gone over 80 mins I don't think and I've always been worried it's not long enough. But to me, again, I have about 5-6 hours a week to commit it doesn't quite seem worth it.

...For example, do a 15 mile medium-long run, the first 10 at easy pace, then 2 miles at tempo pace. Run this portion at marathon pace, or at the fastest, half marathon pace (but no faster). Then, go into 4 x 400m at 5K pace, with 60 sec jog recoveries. Cool down at easy pace to a total of 15 miles. Make it one long continuous run.

Endurance + tempo, all in one. Minimal time wasted doing the forever-shuffle.

And, use your other 6 days wisely, like @malmo says.

Anything under a marathon you don't really need a long run. This would be my rough list in order of importance:

1. Frequency of runs

2. Mileage

3. Threshold work

4. Short reps

5. "VO2"

6. Long run

I was an “l.S.D.” Runner. Liked Bob Deines philosophy and him personally. Rich Delgado came out with a P.O.T. Philosophy (“plenty of tempo”) in that era, and it had a following. Did both for a while, but went back to long slow distance because it seemed to hold up in long races, but mainly because it was more fun and much less stress. There’s no substitute for mileage for distance runners and running effortlessly(my philosophy😊)

A 7-8 mile Tempo at marathon pace is one of the best staple workouts you can possibly do for all distances from 5k up to a Marathon, much more important than ridiculously long runs... great for aerobic endurance, running form and economy, I'd do them twice a week. Get your easy mileage up and your run frequency up... run every day, run twice a day if you can, don't worry too much about how far you run.. weekly mileage is much more important than length of any particular run, do a couple of these tempos a week.. you'll be flying.

...and we came to double threshold method, where 2 times per week AM session is at MP pace +-, train smart like Ingebrigtsen

How did you get to thinking this? We're about the same age and came through the era where we always heard how important the long run is. But I did, and still do, sometimes think everyone did them because everyone did them. I did know, or know of, several people who ran well, even at the marathon, without much in the line of long runs but sort of shrugged them off.

Rich Delgado! There's an obscure name from long ago. You must be about as old as me. Is he still alive and/or running at all? Deines was still doing a bit last I knew.

Is that a question or a statement?

Alberto Salazar
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average
long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.

Todd Williams
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average
long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles.

==============================
A summary from Alberto Salazars training log in 1977
70 days, 130 sessions
60 doubles
10 singles
21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer. (28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)
14.2 miles = avg daily mileage
15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x), 18(4x)
69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)
7.1 miles = avg AM run
6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)
61 = number of PM runs
8.3 miles = avg PM run

9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)
13.0 miles = avg long run
15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.
Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage

Long runs = 13.1% of the avg weekly mileage

FROM THE TODD WILLIAMS TRAINING THREAD

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week
Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10
Specific workouts: Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.
Key workouts:
1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with
400m jog recovery 6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery 7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace.

10 long runs (12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10)
10.2 miles = avg long run
12 miles = longest run. One occurrence.
Long runs = 80% of the avg daily mileage Long runs =13.4% of the avg weekly mileage[/b]
======================================
Alberto Salazar's 1977cross country log.
Sept 5-11 105 miles
9/5 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles
9/6 T - AM 11 miles PM 3 miles
9/7 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 11.5 miles
9/8 T - AM 5 miles PM 8 miles
9/9 F - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles
9/10 S - AM 3.5 warm-up, 6x 1 mile (5:12 to 4:44) w/400jog PM 4 miles
9/11 S - AM 4 miles PM 11 miles
Sept 12-18 108 miles
9/12 M - AM 6 miles PM 12 miles
9/13 T - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 6x 1 mile w 400 jog (5:30,5:00,5:04,4:50,5:05,4:50) , 3 miles easy
9/14 W - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles
9/15 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 mile warmup, 3 x 150 steep hill (60-70s), 6 miles
9/16 F - AM 6 miles PM 8 miles
9/17 S - AM 2.5 miles easy, 10.5 miles in 54:15 PM 5 miles easy
9/18 S - AM 13 miles
Sept 19-25 110 miles
9/19 M - AM 7.5 miles PM 8.5 miles
9/20 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles warmup, 6x 1 mile w/400 jog(4:54,4:46,4:46,4:42,4:32,4:18) 3.5 miles
9/21 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles
9/22 T - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 miles 3 sets 3x300 hill (E-M-H), 3.5 miles
9/23 F - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles
9/24 S - AM 2 mile warmup, 30th Avenue Drill: ¾ mile in 3:15, 2nd ¾ mile in 3:20, last one 3:20, 14 miles total
9/25 S - AM 11 miles easy PM 2 miles with stairs
Sept 26-Oct 2 98 miles
9/26 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6x 30/30 (28/32)
9/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 4 x ¾ mile (3:30), 3 x 1 mile(5:10,4:54,4:32) w/ 400 jog, 3 miles warmdown
9/28 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
9/29 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x hill on golf course, 3 miles
9/30 F - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles
10/1 S - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 meet 2 miles, 10000 CX in 29:22 (1st, Virgin 2nd) 3 mile warmdown
10/2 S - AM 13 miles
Oct 3 - Oct 9 109 miles
10/3 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30
10/4 T - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile cooldown
10/5 W - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30
10/6 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, 9 x hill (E,M,H), 3.5 miles
10/7 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/8 S - 6am 2.5 miles, 10am 1.5 easy, 6x1 mile (5:12,5:07,4:54,4:48,4:44,4:31) 400 jog, 3 miles easy
10/9 S - AM 14 miles (around the Butte)
Oct 10 - Oct 16 106 miles
10/10 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/11 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, ¾ mile (3:09), 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26,2:19,2:26,2:11,2:25/49-50), 1.5 miles easy
10/12 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/13 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x 300 hill (E, M, H), 3.5 miles
10/14 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/15 S - 6am 3 miles, 10am 30th Ave Drill: ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles (@5:17), ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles, ¾ mile (3:15), 1 mile cooldown
10/16 S - AM 14 miles
Oct 17 - Oct 23 88 miles
10/17 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/18 T - AM 7 miles 1.5 mile warmup, PM 4 x 330 uphill,
4 x 330 downhill, 3 mile cooldown
10/19 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/20 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 1 mile (4:13), 1 mile easy, 4x880/330 (2:26,2:22,2:16,2:16/50-48) 2 miles.
10/21 F - AM 6 miles, sore tendon
10/22 S - AM 4 miles PM 6 miles still painful, but better
10/23 S - AM 13 miles
Oct 24 - Oct 30 100 miles
10/24 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/25 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 3x ¾ mile(3:29,3:23,3:17), 2x880/330 (2:32,50,2:22,51) 1 mile cooldown
10/26 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 5 miles and strides
10/28 F - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles
10/29 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 2 miles , 10,000 race (3rd), 2 miles PM 5.5 easy
10/30 S - AM 15 miles (note: had Alberto run his usual
13-14 miles he wouldn’t have made 100, LOL!)
Oct 31 - Novt 6 98 miles
10/31 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6x30/30, 1 mile cooldown
11/1 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 5x330 uphill and downhill, 3 mile cooldown
11/2 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
11/3 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4x ¾ mile (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18), w/ 400 jog, 2x880/330
11/4 F - AM 4 miles PM rest
11/5 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 3 miles, 1 mile (4:14) cont. 5:12, 3 miles at 5:12, 3x330 (51,49,45)
11/6 S - AM 12 miles
Nov 7 - Nov 13 86 miles
11/7 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8x330, 1 mile cooldown
11/8 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:27, 3:22, 3:18) with 400 jog, 3x880/330(2:32,51,2:20,47,2:16,47)
11/9 W - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles
11/10 T - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x330 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3x330(51,49,45), 1 mile cooldown
11/11 F - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles
11/12 S - AM 2 miles, 10,000 Xc 29:47 (3rd), 2 miles cooldown
11/13 S - AM 12 miles
Nov 14 - Nov 20 67 miles
11/14 M - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6x30/30
11/15 T - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles
11/16 W - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2x 880/330 (2:30,51,2:22,48) 2 miles
11/17 T - AM 5.5 miles PM 6.5 miles
11/18 F - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 9x330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46), 1 mile
11/19 S - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles
11/20 S - AM 4 miles
Nov 21 - Nov 27 44 miles
11/21 M - AM 2 miles 11am NCAA CX (9th), Team beat UTEP 100-105.
11/22 T - 5 miles
11/23 W - 5 miles
11/24 T - 4 miles
11/25 F - 5 miles
11/26 S - 7am 3 miles Noon AAU 10000m XC (10th)

11/27S - 4 miles
Summary:
70 days, 130 sessions
60 doubles
10 singles
21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer
(28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)
14.2 miles = avg daily mileage
15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x),
18(4x)
69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)
7.1 miles = avg AM run
6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)
61 = number of PM runs
8.3 miles = avg PM run
9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)
13.0 miles = avg long run
15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.
Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage Long runs = 13.1%
of the avg weekly mileage

======================================================================
What it takes to run 42:22 at the Gate River Run?By Todd Williams*
Wow! It’s been 12 years since I ran one of the best races of my career and set the American record of 42:22 right here in Jacksonville at the 1995 Gate River Run. I was also fortunate enough -- through lots of hard work -- to win four other Gate River Runs in the 90’s. I retired from competitive racing in 2003 and today the question I am asked most is: how did I run that fast and how did I train to average 4:30 per mile for 9.3 miles? My reply is always the same.
I had plenty of talent but I also WORKED EXTREMELY HARD over a long period of time. In this article I’ll give an inside look at the training I did leading up to the 1995 Gate River Run. However, I DO NOT ADVISE THIS TRAINING SCHEDULE for anyone other than a world-class runner. What worked for me won’t necessarily work for you. Now that I’m coaching I know it’s extremely important to train each runner differently. Each runner has a certain mileage and intensity they can handle and must adjust accordingly. Following is an example of my training leading to my record setting performance.

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate
River Run:?110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run:?12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10 Specific workouts:? Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below.

For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed
by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.
Key workouts:
1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each
3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with
400m jog recovery 6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery 7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace. The strides helped develop my speed and I left the track each day feeling fast. I was also in the weight room three times a week for circuit training consisting of body weight exercises (push-ups, dips, lunges, pull-ups etc). I took very little rest between each exercise. I wanted to break down my muscles and make them work when they were very fatigued. I liked to duplicate the feel I would have in the later stages of my races.

Even though I only stretched about 10 minutes before and after each run, I always recommend doing whatever you’ve been doing that keeps you healthy. Don’t change what works.

As you can see, I didn’t do anything magical. I just ran a consistent program year-in and
year-out that got me to the point of handling a higher work load. I was also very fortunate to stay healthy for a majority of my running career.

My advice to all runners at any level is to stick with what works, stay consistent and if you are a beginner or a runner that wants advice, contact me at PUSHTHEPACE.com and I’ll help design a program that best fits your needs.

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