Official 2022 NCAA Regionals Live Discussion Thread

Wolves and Aggies wrote:

Slo-Jo wrote:

I don't know. I am sometimes on the fence about her. The tactic of having Katelyn pace everyone yesterday was smart, but it would have worked equally well last year having Ellie pace her team mates to nationals. If she had, Katelyn likely would have qualified. I have wondered if she might have had a lapse in objectivity and let Katelyn fall because Katelyn might have gone to nationals and beaten Ellie. You can tell from interviews that Laurie Henes wanted that mother/daughter 5K champion narrative badly. Just a different perspective.

Katelyn seems to be the workhorse of this team. During the workout Wednesday segment, it was Katelyn forcing the pace when Sam Bush tried to slow down. Watching them all yesterday I had the feeling that they are all just super comfortable zoning out and tucking in behind Katelyn. Notice that they don't tend to run as well in races that she is not also in (thinking Sam Bush in the ACC 800 and then in the regional 1500). Bush even said in an interview that it was more fun in the ACC 5K because she had her team mates, but it was also easier because she had Katelyn. They have all reached a new level of running since Katelyn came back this past fall at 100% (super talents rising out of nowhere). That could be seen as a healthy team dynamic, but my suspicion lies in that Henes did not have her daughter Ellie play this role last year.

My concern about this is that Katelyn Touhy, although smart, seems like a "good girl" who readily follows the directions of those in charge. She has been described as super coachable a lot over the years, and in interviews she would often say things that seemed like she was parroting what her adults had told her. I hope she does not go into the final feeling obligated to take care of her team mates to the detriment of her own performance. She will have a lot to think about in that race, not the least of which is that her now fast enough team mates are going to also be gunning for her and have been trained to use her as their spring board to kicking time. The scenario that scares me, more than Nichols or Roe or Chalangnat, is that those 4 will work as a pack and take her down. I know that is a legit way the game is played, but if that happens I think it is worth examining the difference in approach when it is Katelyn leading versus Ellie. I also think that will really suck for her. This is just a different perspective based on podcasts and interviews and watching races over the past couple of years. I could be way off base, but I also know women, and all of the hearts and flowers of team love that they talk about kind of go out the window in 2 weeks. NC State has no chance of winning the team competition. This 5K is an individual race, and 5 competitive and talented girls are going for a win that they all want badly. Katelyn might be at a disadvantage here because they have been trained to use her. It will be those 4 versus her. She will be the one with no one to work off of.

I agree with FastTuohy on the first part of this. Katelyn was no where near Elly’s level last year. I do think it was a mistake to have KT double in the 1500/5k at Regionals last year. Not sure the reasoning behind that. Then there were reports some of the team including her were sick and that compromised things even more. Hmmm…Even with her leading the nation in both events right now they didn’t try that again this year. I think it’s curious they had Bush double though. Obviously it worked out well for her given what happened in the 1500 yesterday but it is curious to me. Hmmmm…That said, Slo-Jo brings up an interesting point about competition within a team especially a women’s team. Sometimes it is all puppies and rainbows on the outside and the reality is more cutthroat. Now I’m not an insider of any kind, just your basic track fan, but my gut feeling is KT is pretty savvy and knows the deal whatever it may be (puppies/rainbows or piranhas LOL) but I really think she is on a different level than her teammates in the 5k and this won’t be an issue at all. There are competitors from other teams of course. It is not likely to be a kickers race in that scenario and even if that happens, who is to say KT isn’t the best kicker at this point? Worst case scenario? If it plays out real ugly as Slo-Jo describes then there is this option going forward: Transfer Portal. I don’t see it happening like that at all but if it did, teams would be lined up to bring her on board.

Slo-Jo wrote:

I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.

Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.

What the actual **** wrote:

Slo-Jo wrote:

I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.

Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.

This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!

What the actual **** wrote:

Slo-Jo wrote:

I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.

Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.

This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!

Slo-Jo wrote:

What the actual **** wrote:

This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!

I'm not saying it's personal. It is a good strategy for them. But I don't see how that won't generate hard feelings. Just saying. I have lived as a moderately competitive female on this planet for 4 decades. From my experience when a group of competitive women are going for the same individual goal (only one can win), and they say that it's "so not competitive" and they are really really rooting for each other - that rarely turns out to be the case. I cannot think of one single time in my life that has turned out to be entirely true. I just don't buy that they are happily training these next 2 weeks with no thoughts of taking each other down or no extra tension. If any of the other 4 are in striking distance of Touhy they will go for her because it's a high stakes competition. My whole point was that if they work together and one of them beats her, her coach encouraged her to help it happen and she would be justified in feeling a little upset (I think hitting the transfer portal would be extreme). I just see how track season could be a tough time for the "team first" mantra that NC State women talk of. There is no team competition here. It's every woman for herself, but the 5 of them have to train together to compete against each other and that seems complicated. Maybe it's not.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm sorry.

Slo-Jo wrote:

I don't know. I am sometimes on the fence about her. The tactic of having Katelyn pace everyone yesterday was smart, but it would have worked equally well last year having Ellie pace her team mates to nationals. If she had, Katelyn likely would have qualified. I have wondered if she might have had a lapse in objectivity and let Katelyn fall because Katelyn might have gone to nationals and beaten Ellie. You can tell from interviews that Laurie Henes wanted that mother/daughter 5K champion narrative badly. Just a different perspective.

Katelyn seems to be the workhorse of this team. During the workout Wednesday segment, it was Katelyn forcing the pace when Sam Bush tried to slow down. Watching them all yesterday I had the feeling that they are all just super comfortable zoning out and tucking in behind Katelyn. Notice that they don't tend to run as well in races that she is not also in (thinking Sam Bush in the ACC 800 and then in the regional 1500). Bush even said in an interview that it was more fun in the ACC 5K because she had her team mates, but it was also easier because she had Katelyn. They have all reached a new level of running since Katelyn came back this past fall at 100% (super talents rising out of nowhere). That could be seen as a healthy team dynamic, but my suspicion lies in that Henes did not have her daughter Ellie play this role last year.

My concern about this is that Katelyn Touhy, although smart, seems like a "good girl" who readily follows the directions of those in charge. She has been described as super coachable a lot over the years, and in interviews she would often say things that seemed like she was parroting what her adults had told her. I hope she does not go into the final feeling obligated to take care of her team mates to the detriment of her own performance. She will have a lot to think about in that race, not the least of which is that her now fast enough team mates are going to also be gunning for her and have been trained to use her as their spring board to kicking time. The scenario that scares me, more than Nichols or Roe or Chalangnat, is that those 4 will work as a pack and take her down. I know that is a legit way the game is played, but if that happens I think it is worth examining the difference in approach when it is Katelyn leading versus Ellie. I also think that will really suck for her. This is just a different perspective based on podcasts and interviews and watching races over the past couple of years. I could be way off base, but I also know women, and all of the hearts and flowers of team love that they talk about kind of go out the window in 2 weeks. NC State has no chance of winning the team competition. This 5K is an individual race, and 5 competitive and talented girls are going for a win that they all want badly. Katelyn might be at a disadvantage here because they have been trained to use her. It will be those 4 versus her. She will be the one with no one to work off of.