Professional 1500m times have not improved. Neither have 5000m times for that matter.
Times have improved at the levels where there hasn't been rampant PED use before. The super shoes have a big effect, but most likely not as big as chemical PEDs. All other things being equal, circa 2000 shoes + EPO is a better than the super shoes, but the super shoes are significantly changing what is a "great" time in US high school and college, even in the mile. And don't try the "PED use has always been rampant among 4:15 milers in high school", that's just silly.
Why would PED use nullify the supposed effect of super shoes? Either the shoes provide a mechanical advantage or they don’t.
The Penn winds are always weird, they pop up and die down a lot. It could not have been too bad on Friday..as Martin was able to carve out a 4:01.x on his own with a few other sub 4:10's, plus most of the top 8 DMR teams in College race were under 4 for 1600.
Times were slower at Penn (compared to other races) this year-which makes Martin’s 4:01 even more impressive. The other PA runners in the mile all ran about 4 seconds slower than what they’ve run this year. Singleton had run 4:04 (ran 4:07 at Penn) Worrrel had run 4:10 (4:15 at Penn) Weber Long 4:12 (4:17 at Penn). It was just windy enough to have an affect on times. I think Martin is in 3:57 shape if he gets in the right race. he ran 4:02 last year after taking up distance running just 18 months prior. He’s trained better and more consistently since the 4:02 (albeit still only running about 45 miles per week). And he has soloed 4:00/4:01 twice in the past 2 weeks.
Only 1 collegiate runner broke 4 in the 4 x 1 Mile Relay on Saturday (with less wind than Friday). Compare that to the Oregon meet Friday night where 12 local HS runners went sub 4:10-including a freshman who went 4:09. Martin is 5-10 seconds faster than every guy in that race (just look at their past performances and head to head match ups). If he had run there I have to believe 3:57/58 would have happened. There is just something about track surfaces and climate/weather that clearly have an affect in distance races. Look at Arcadia Invite that typically produces 10+ second 3200 PR’s on average. Or Stanford collegiate distance races where guys routinely run 20-30 second PR’s in the 5000. East Coast tracks in spring don’t seem to be conducive to fast times—maybe Franklin Field in April conditions is just not that fast. Below are the fastest HS mile times ever run at Penn Relays.
Gary Martin 4:01.05. (2022) Sean McGorty 4:04.47 (2013) Ben Malone 4:05.59 (2013) Drew Hunter 4:07.15 (2015) CJ Singleton 4:07.51 (2022) Nick Plant 4:07.58 (2022) Aiden Neal 4:07.59 (2022) Patrick Joseph 4:07.89 (2013) Matt Centrowitz 4:08.38 (2008)
Only ONE collegiate runner broke 4 in the 4x1 mile at Penn on Saturday…..So are 12 HS runners from Oregon apparently faster than most of the collegiate milers at top tier schools??? Or were the conditions and track just PERFECT that night??? Not taking anything away from the Oregon kids-they are phenomenal athletes-but curious what those times would have been at Penn this year.
Times were slower at Penn (compared to other races) this year-which makes Martin’s 4:01 even more impressive. The other PA runners in the mile all ran about 4 seconds slower than what they’ve run this year. Singleton had run 4:04 (ran 4:07 at Penn) Worrrel had run 4:10 (4:15 at Penn) Weber Long 4:12 (4:17 at Penn). It was just windy enough to have an affect on times. I think Martin is in 3:57 shape if he gets in the right race. he ran 4:02 last year after taking up distance running just 18 months prior. He’s trained better and more consistently since the 4:02 (albeit still only running about 45 miles per week). And he has soloed 4:00/4:01 twice in the past 2 weeks.
Only 1 collegiate runner broke 4 in the 4 x 1 Mile Relay on Saturday (with less wind than Friday). Compare that to the Oregon meet Friday night where 12 local HS runners went sub 4:10-including a freshman who went 4:09. Martin is 5-10 seconds faster than every guy in that race (just look at their past performances and head to head match ups). If he had run there I have to believe 3:57/58 would have happened. There is just something about track surfaces and climate/weather that clearly have an affect in distance races. Look at Arcadia Invite that typically produces 10+ second 3200 PR’s on average. Or Stanford collegiate distance races where guys routinely run 20-30 second PR’s in the 5000. East Coast tracks in spring don’t seem to be conducive to fast times—maybe Franklin Field in April conditions is just not that fast. Below are the fastest HS mile times ever run at Penn Relays.
Gary Martin 4:01.05. (2022) Sean McGorty 4:04.47 (2013) Ben Malone 4:05.59 (2013) Drew Hunter 4:07.15 (2015) CJ Singleton 4:07.51 (2022) Nick Plant 4:07.58 (2022) Aiden Neal 4:07.59 (2022) Patrick Joseph 4:07.89 (2013) Matt Centrowitz 4:08.38 (2008)
Only ONE collegiate runner broke 4 in the 4x1 mile at Penn on Saturday…..So are 12 HS runners from Oregon apparently faster than most of the collegiate milers at top tier schools??? Or were the conditions and track just PERFECT that night??? Not taking anything away from the Oregon kids-they are phenomenal athletes-but curious what those times would have been at Penn this year.
Another example of Stanford’s fast track/perfect climate from last night’s 10,000. 4 Stanford sophomores under 28:45 - (What times would this same field have run at Penn this weekend?)
Adriaan Wildschutt Florida State 27:38.54 Charles Hicks Stanford 27:40.16 soph Cole Sprout Stanford 27:42.42 soph Matthew Pereira Harvard 27:45.77 Ky Robinson Stanford 27:47.11 soph Tibebu Proctor Washington 28:38.34 Thomas Boyden Stanford 28:44.67 soph
When will the elite High School milers realize they need to coordinate a sub 4 attempt for the top 15 guys on a fast track, in ideal climate, under the lights? The National Championship races (Brooks, New Balance, Nike, Adidas….) are set up to make money—not produce fast times. Running the mile in 90 degree heat at North Carolina A&T doesn’t produce sub 4’s!!!! I don’t believe any HS sub four has ever been run at an organized HS national championship.
Somebody needs to coordinate a race at Stanford (or another ‘Fast Track’ in ideal weather location) under the lights in late June. we could potentially see 5 High School kids go sub 4. Nine ran 4:04 or faster Indoor this year and that didn’t include 3 of the Newbury Park kids.
As impressive as this kid is, and he sure sounds like a great HS runner, surely the shoes probably are worth almost what the wind took away. So in the new shoes he might run well under 4 but it sounds as if sub 4 is going to be done perhaps 5-10 times per year by high school kids with the new shoes.
More talk about shoes and spikes from people that probably have never even worn them.
As impressive as this kid is, and he sure sounds like a great HS runner, surely the shoes probably are worth almost what the wind took away. So in the new shoes he might run well under 4 but it sounds as if sub 4 is going to be done perhaps 5-10 times per year by high school kids with the new shoes.
More talk about shoes and spikes from people that probably have never even worn them.
Every 4:40 miler from 10+ years ago thinks they’d have run 4:10 in “Super Shoes”.
No one wants to acknowledge that over the past 10 years Jack Daniels/Optimal Training methods have completely changed HS distance running. This, along with the fact that todays HS runners believe in the “4:20 isn’t fast” mentality. They’ve set the bar higher because they are more educated.
20 years ago very few HS baseball pitchers threw 90 MPH. Today some HS teams have multiple guys throwing that fast. They practice pitching with less intensity than they did 20 years ago and they pitch fewer innings, but they utilize less intense, optimal/smarter training for 12 months per year…..sound familiar. No one claims that improved Nike Baseball Spikes are responsible for the huge improvement in HS pitching velocity.
20 years ago HS pitchers threw complete games every 4 or 5 days, and distance runners ran multiple events in multiple meets every week.
High School athletes are better educated, better trained and have higher personal goals/expectations today. The down side to this is you often see little to no improvement when many of these kids get to college.
Gary ran a solo 8:41 3200 at West Chester Henderson today, again in lousy conditions. http://results.tfmeetpro.com/CCRS/Henderson_Invite_2022/results_24.html#round_1_heat_2. They moved the 3200s to earlier in the meet this year due to weather conditions that will be worsening throughout the evening, it's currently in low 50s and rain in West Chester.
That wasn't a negative split in the 3200m (4:20/4:21.5), but a very impressive performance that would have ranked among the best all time before this year.
Gary ran a solo 8:41 3200 at West Chester Henderson today, again in lousy conditions. http://results.tfmeetpro.com/CCRS/Henderson_Invite_2022/results_24.html#round_1_heat_2. They moved the 3200s to earlier in the meet this year due to weather conditions that will be worsening throughout the evening, it's currently in low 50s and rain in West Chester.
Gary ran a solo 8:41 3200 at West Chester Henderson today, again in lousy conditions. http://results.tfmeetpro.com/CCRS/Henderson_Invite_2022/results_24.html#round_1_heat_2. They moved the 3200s to earlier in the meet this year due to weather conditions that will be worsening throughout the evening, it's currently in low 50s and rain in West Chester.
Can someone get this kid in a good race? Just dropping solo 4:00's and 8:40's left and right. Have to think he could run 3:57-58 / 8:35 with some competition and good weather.