I find it disgusting that no Bowerman TC runners have not come out to condemn the convicted cheater that is Shelby Houihan. She had her due process and was confirmed a terrible drug cheat. Why would anyone in the club not come out and say what a rotten person she is? She continues lying and yet they say nothing. Don't they feel filthy associating with a convicted drug cheat? Don't they want a clean sport where the rules are fair for all?
Because they are in on it?
The most disgusting part is how hypocritical the BTC is, primarily Flanagan. I don’t care how fast they run. Until they quit supporting a proven doper, I can’t get back on board with this team.
Yeah, it's super f'cked up. I've lost a lot of respect for the group, including coach shalane.
I know they don't care, and opinions are like assholes, but still...it sucks and it's a bad look for the sport.
same with Kara , who i think is part of clean sport .
Agreed! She really lost my respect.
Agreed. It does make you wonder if it was part of the reason many left.
It’s got me wondering if they have all signed or sign some type of non-disclosure or support contracts upon joining the group?? Perhaps they are not allowed to not fully support someone within the group??
could be why so many left, but haven’t publicly spoken out against Shelby. They can leave… but perhaps they can’t speak out??
True fans of running don’t care about “clean sport.” Just let people run and see who gets to the tape first. I don’t care about what training they did to get there anymore than I care about how many jump shots Lebron took at his last practice.
**So I believe it's most likely she did it, and that she should quit hanging about and leave the sport alone, and that Schumacher coming out all guns blazing in June and then hiding from all media and questions ever since is cowardly and bad for the sport.** However, this is my genuine attempt to put myself in BTC athlete shoes and answer the question: why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? If you want to skip to the conclusion of my answer, just go past point 4.
1) The low hanging fruit answer is "well 'cause they're in on it." I mean, sure. Still seems unlikely; it's a massive group in sheer number of athletes and has very high turnover, complete with people leaving feeling quite comfortable speaking negatively of the group (Quigley). If Schumacher were running a full blown doping system for years involving 40+ athletes, I believe there'd be way more smoke. Look how much smoke there was at NOP just with the "grey area" stuff with L-Carnitine and thyroid meds, let alone nandrolone and they were a way smaller group (more people = harder to keep things under wraps). With US Post there were years of rumors picked up by investigators and the press. BTC has basically zero beyond Houlihan. And not only has he kept all whispers to zero, but has successfully fooled all but one test out of the quite literally 1100+ USADA tests his group has gone through in history, not counting WADA/AIU tests or non-US athlete tests? To me it's most likely Houlihan snapped at some point and decided for whatever reason that she needed a boost. Seems way more plausible than the alternative. There are way way too many people who would have had an opportunity to stick a knife in the team's back across the years to assume they all passed it up. NOP had a small army of people willing to spill dirt on Salazar while Armstrong was brought down by old teammates, and yet no ex Schumacher athlete has said anything, even the ones who seem to have an issue with the group.
2) Okay, so if they're not all dirty, what gives? Well, if she's lying, then maybe it's as simple as they believe her. She's clearly good friends with a lot of the team, it's very possible they truly believe everything she says, or if they don't think it was the burrito, that maybe she got it elsewhere. How many people do you know who have been in relationships where they were willfully ignorant of their partner cheating on them for months, or even years? It happens every day.
3) Peer pressure. It's quite possible the team doesn't actually all agree on this, but a significant enough majority of the team falls into group 2 (believing her), that they don't feel comfortable speaking out, publicly at least about it. It's been less than a year since SH's ban became public. Some athletes, Schweizer, Cranny, Frerichs, plus the coaches, have been extremely outspoken about supporting Houlihan. Peer pressure sounds weak, and it kind of is, but I think in combination with number four it explains more.
4) Commercial/Institutional Pressure - There are several components at play here. BTC came out all guns blazing attacking the AIU and WADA. There's no way in hell that a corporation with Nike would let multiple employees/contractors (I believe it is the latter not former), shoot from the hip like that on such a touchy issue without giving at least tacit approval for BTC to attack like that. That means there are people higher up at Nike who for whatever reason are "Team Houlihan." These people likely have a big influence, if not full say on who gets contracts, how good those contracts are, and who gets reduced. Add to this, that Nike have been noted numerous times in the past having contracts contingent on athletes being affiliated with X group. Also consider how USATF were fully prepared to instate Houlihan into Trials even after her ban was announced only stopping after WA, WADA, AIU, and many athletes collectively freaked out. There's clearly a lot of clout still backing Houlihan.
So why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? I think there the majority of the athletes fall into category 2 - they believe her. But I also think it not just possible but also likely that there are some who don't, but for reason 3+4 haven't said anything *publicly* so far. How eager would someone be to publicly attack a former teammate if most of their friends and co-workers would hate them for it, and it would likely lead to them losing their job and gaining the animosity of a multi-billion $ corporation and federation administrators who have both shown a willingness in the past to be vindictive and litigious. Further, if I am right on point 1 and it was just Houlihan doping herself, what is publicly calling Houlihan a liar going to achieve for you other than making you feel like you have the moral high ground. If Schumacher were actually cheating somehow, it would be different, but if not then losing your job and your friends seems a high price to pay just to say "I think Houlihan is lying, I have no new evidence, but I don't believe her."
I'll point out that until CAS published its decision, the track and field community only had Houlihan's own account to judge off of and many people bought it. How many BTC athletes have actually supported Houlihan since that report came out? And I mean explicitly like Cranny and Flanagan after the BU races, not implicitly "well they're still with the team so that means they support her."
They are not speaking up because they feel she is innocent.
I agree
Kinda reminds me of the us postal team and when Floyd popped. All it takes is one to spill the beans and the whole ship goes down.
good faith answer wrote:
**So I believe it's most likely she did it, and that she should quit hanging about and leave the sport alone, and that Schumacher coming out all guns blazing in June and then hiding from all media and questions ever since is cowardly and bad for the sport.** However, this is my genuine attempt to put myself in BTC athlete shoes and answer the question: why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? If you want to skip to the conclusion of my answer, just go past point 4.
1) The low hanging fruit answer is "well 'cause they're in on it." I mean, sure. Still seems unlikely; it's a massive group in sheer number of athletes and has very high turnover, complete with people leaving feeling quite comfortable speaking negatively of the group (Quigley). If Schumacher were running a full blown doping system for years involving 40+ athletes, I believe there'd be way more smoke. Look how much smoke there was at NOP just with the "grey area" stuff with L-Carnitine and thyroid meds, let alone nandrolone and they were a way smaller group (more people = harder to keep things under wraps). With US Post there were years of rumors picked up by investigators and the press. BTC has basically zero beyond Houlihan. And not only has he kept all whispers to zero, but has successfully fooled all but one test out of the quite literally 1100+ USADA tests his group has gone through in history, not counting WADA/AIU tests or non-US athlete tests? To me it's most likely Houlihan snapped at some point and decided for whatever reason that she needed a boost. Seems way more plausible than the alternative. There are way way too many people who would have had an opportunity to stick a knife in the team's back across the years to assume they all passed it up. NOP had a small army of people willing to spill dirt on Salazar while Armstrong was brought down by old teammates, and yet no ex Schumacher athlete has said anything, even the ones who seem to have an issue with the group.
You know every athlete on BTC who looks like they randomly lost 20lbs off of an already skeletal frame is on thyroid meds, right? FFS Schumacher was sending them all to Dr. Brown up to the day he was banned from treating athletes.
Same stuff different day wrote:
Kinda reminds me of the us postal team and when Floyd popped. All it takes is one to spill the beans and the whole ship goes down.
+1
To avoid that, everyone is extra supportive of Houlihan.
good faith answer wrote:
**So I believe it's most likely she did it, and that she should quit hanging about and leave the sport alone, and that Schumacher coming out all guns blazing in June and then hiding from all media and questions ever since is cowardly and bad for the sport.** However, this is my genuine attempt to put myself in BTC athlete shoes and answer the question: why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? If you want to skip to the conclusion of my answer, just go past point 4.
1) The low hanging fruit answer is "well 'cause they're in on it." I mean, sure. Still seems unlikely; it's a massive group in sheer number of athletes and has very high turnover, complete with people leaving feeling quite comfortable speaking negatively of the group (Quigley). If Schumacher were running a full blown doping system for years involving 40+ athletes, I believe there'd be way more smoke. Look how much smoke there was at NOP just with the "grey area" stuff with L-Carnitine and thyroid meds, let alone nandrolone and they were a way smaller group (more people = harder to keep things under wraps). With US Post there were years of rumors picked up by investigators and the press. BTC has basically zero beyond Houlihan. And not only has he kept all whispers to zero, but has successfully fooled all but one test out of the quite literally 1100+ USADA tests his group has gone through in history, not counting WADA/AIU tests or non-US athlete tests? To me it's most likely Houlihan snapped at some point and decided for whatever reason that she needed a boost. Seems way more plausible than the alternative. There are way way too many people who would have had an opportunity to stick a knife in the team's back across the years to assume they all passed it up. NOP had a small army of people willing to spill dirt on Salazar while Armstrong was brought down by old teammates, and yet no ex Schumacher athlete has said anything, even the ones who seem to have an issue with the group.
2) Okay, so if they're not all dirty, what gives? Well, if she's lying, then maybe it's as simple as they believe her. She's clearly good friends with a lot of the team, it's very possible they truly believe everything she says, or if they don't think it was the burrito, that maybe she got it elsewhere. How many people do you know who have been in relationships where they were willfully ignorant of their partner cheating on them for months, or even years? It happens every day.
3) Peer pressure. It's quite possible the team doesn't actually all agree on this, but a significant enough majority of the team falls into group 2 (believing her), that they don't feel comfortable speaking out, publicly at least about it. It's been less than a year since SH's ban became public. Some athletes, Schweizer, Cranny, Frerichs, plus the coaches, have been extremely outspoken about supporting Houlihan. Peer pressure sounds weak, and it kind of is, but I think in combination with number four it explains more.
4) Commercial/Institutional Pressure - There are several components at play here. BTC came out all guns blazing attacking the AIU and WADA. There's no way in hell that a corporation with Nike would let multiple employees/contractors (I believe it is the latter not former), shoot from the hip like that on such a touchy issue without giving at least tacit approval for BTC to attack like that. That means there are people higher up at Nike who for whatever reason are "Team Houlihan." These people likely have a big influence, if not full say on who gets contracts, how good those contracts are, and who gets reduced. Add to this, that Nike have been noted numerous times in the past having contracts contingent on athletes being affiliated with X group. Also consider how USATF were fully prepared to instate Houlihan into Trials even after her ban was announced only stopping after WA, WADA, AIU, and many athletes collectively freaked out. There's clearly a lot of clout still backing Houlihan.
So why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? I think there the majority of the athletes fall into category 2 - they believe her. But I also think it not just possible but also likely that there are some who don't, but for reason 3+4 haven't said anything *publicly* so far. How eager would someone be to publicly attack a former teammate if most of their friends and co-workers would hate them for it, and it would likely lead to them losing their job and gaining the animosity of a multi-billion $ corporation and federation administrators who have both shown a willingness in the past to be vindictive and litigious. Further, if I am right on point 1 and it was just Houlihan doping herself, what is publicly calling Houlihan a liar going to achieve for you other than making you feel like you have the moral high ground. If Schumacher were actually cheating somehow, it would be different, but if not then losing your job and your friends seems a high price to pay just to say "I think Houlihan is lying, I have no new evidence, but I don't believe her."
I'll point out that until CAS published its decision, the track and field community only had Houlihan's own account to judge off of and many people bought it. How many BTC athletes have actually supported Houlihan since that report came out? And I mean explicitly like Cranny and Flanagan after the BU races, not implicitly "well they're still with the team so that means they support her."
This is spot on. Especially after the coaches came out so vehemently in her favour and seemed to be co-ordinating her defence strategy - nothing has actually changed since then other than the CAS ruling (which they clearly disagreed with) so the coaches can't really change their position.
I think it is as simple as that - whilst your coach is massively supporting your ex-team-mate, how can you say anything about it?
I think the bigger questions to be asked are of those athletes who are still opting to join the team despite the knowledge that the coaches are apologists for alleged doping and fighting against the organisations in place to secure a clean sport.
casual obsever wrote:
Because they are in on it?
If they are in on it, why wouldn't they throw her under the bus and make themselves look as innocent as possible?
It could be in their contract that they can not be critical.
Because then she would pull a Landis and start talking.
Not for me. I loved seeing Fisher break the record. Had the team been talking about Shelby recently woukd have distracted from their accomplishments. It is sort of like seeing players take a knee. Most people watch sports for entertainment. Shelby isn't there so I don't want to hear about her.
good faith answer wrote:
**So I believe it's most likely she did it, and that she should quit hanging about and leave the sport alone, and that Schumacher coming out all guns blazing in June and then hiding from all media and questions ever since is cowardly and bad for the sport.** However, this is my genuine attempt to put myself in BTC athlete shoes and answer the question: why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? If you want to skip to the conclusion of my answer, just go past point 4.
1) The low hanging fruit answer is "well 'cause they're in on it." I mean, sure. Still seems unlikely; it's a massive group in sheer number of athletes and has very high turnover, complete with people leaving feeling quite comfortable speaking negatively of the group (Quigley). If Schumacher were running a full blown doping system for years involving 40+ athletes, I believe there'd be way more smoke. Look how much smoke there was at NOP just with the "grey area" stuff with L-Carnitine and thyroid meds, let alone nandrolone and they were a way smaller group (more people = harder to keep things under wraps). With US Post there were years of rumors picked up by investigators and the press. BTC has basically zero beyond Houlihan. And not only has he kept all whispers to zero, but has successfully fooled all but one test out of the quite literally 1100+ USADA tests his group has gone through in history, not counting WADA/AIU tests or non-US athlete tests? To me it's most likely Houlihan snapped at some point and decided for whatever reason that she needed a boost. Seems way more plausible than the alternative. There are way way too many people who would have had an opportunity to stick a knife in the team's back across the years to assume they all passed it up. NOP had a small army of people willing to spill dirt on Salazar while Armstrong was brought down by old teammates, and yet no ex Schumacher athlete has said anything, even the ones who seem to have an issue with the group.
2) Okay, so if they're not all dirty, what gives? Well, if she's lying, then maybe it's as simple as they believe her. She's clearly good friends with a lot of the team, it's very possible they truly believe everything she says, or if they don't think it was the burrito, that maybe she got it elsewhere. How many people do you know who have been in relationships where they were willfully ignorant of their partner cheating on them for months, or even years? It happens every day.
3) Peer pressure. It's quite possible the team doesn't actually all agree on this, but a significant enough majority of the team falls into group 2 (believing her), that they don't feel comfortable speaking out, publicly at least about it. It's been less than a year since SH's ban became public. Some athletes, Schweizer, Cranny, Frerichs, plus the coaches, have been extremely outspoken about supporting Houlihan. Peer pressure sounds weak, and it kind of is, but I think in combination with number four it explains more.
4) Commercial/Institutional Pressure - There are several components at play here. BTC came out all guns blazing attacking the AIU and WADA. There's no way in hell that a corporation with Nike would let multiple employees/contractors (I believe it is the latter not former), shoot from the hip like that on such a touchy issue without giving at least tacit approval for BTC to attack like that. That means there are people higher up at Nike who for whatever reason are "Team Houlihan." These people likely have a big influence, if not full say on who gets contracts, how good those contracts are, and who gets reduced. Add to this, that Nike have been noted numerous times in the past having contracts contingent on athletes being affiliated with X group. Also consider how USATF were fully prepared to instate Houlihan into Trials even after her ban was announced only stopping after WA, WADA, AIU, and many athletes collectively freaked out. There's clearly a lot of clout still backing Houlihan.
So why have no BTC athletes have come out and criticized SH? I think there the majority of the athletes fall into category 2 - they believe her. But I also think it not just possible but also likely that there are some who don't, but for reason 3+4 haven't said anything *publicly* so far. How eager would someone be to publicly attack a former teammate if most of their friends and co-workers would hate them for it, and it would likely lead to them losing their job and gaining the animosity of a multi-billion $ corporation and federation administrators who have both shown a willingness in the past to be vindictive and litigious. Further, if I am right on point 1 and it was just Houlihan doping herself, what is publicly calling Houlihan a liar going to achieve for you other than making you feel like you have the moral high ground. If Schumacher were actually cheating somehow, it would be different, but if not then losing your job and your friends seems a high price to pay just to say "I think Houlihan is lying, I have no new evidence, but I don't believe her."
I'll point out that until CAS published its decision, the track and field community only had Houlihan's own account to judge off of and many people bought it. How many BTC athletes have actually supported Houlihan since that report came out? And I mean explicitly like Cranny and Flanagan after the BU races, not implicitly "well they're still with the team so that means they support her."
Whatever the case may be, shame on Schumacher and Flanagan for allowing it to fester and to safe harbor Houlihan. Not only are they hypocrites but they are cruel and doing damage to their other athlete’s reputations. And shame on the clean athletes at BTC for not being adult enough to speak up and take a stand for clean sport and their personal reputations? It’s not a cult. It’s a running team.