Sahlman has to be in the GOAT conversation now for HS Distance

Ritz has to be on there. And a soft spot for Alan Webb crushing (and still holding) the HS mile record. Only 4 choices allowed like the real Mount Rushmore. Colin will secure his place with a big HS 2 mile record.

You’re definitely rocking some recency bias here. I’m less taken with mile to 5k XC range than you seem to be. I doubt I’d put either of them on the Mt. Rushmore tbh, though of course Sahlman still has time to change that.

Ryun, Lindgren, Webb, Ritz - that’s a solid Mt. Rushmore of U.S. high school boys’ distance running.

Eh, I don’t think Verzbicas lost for 2 years straight in any season. Maybe Ritz didn’t either. But at any distance below 5000 Ritz would have been thoroughly beaten by Sahlman and Verzbicas. I would give them both the edge over Webb and Ryun at 3000+ as well, although Webb vs either of those guys at 2 miles would be a fun race.

My Rushmore would probably be Verzbicas, Sahlman, Ryun, Ritz. Honorable mention to Cheserek, Lindgren, Webb and Pre.

Ritz GOAT XC dude (HM Verzbicas and Ches), Ryun GOAT track dude (HM Kessler and Webb), other two guys all-arounders.

Lindgren should be either #1 or #2 to Ryun, no one else. Places 3-4 are a toss-up between Webb, Ritz, Verzbicas, Fisher, Hunter, and Sahlman

Ritz gets way too much love on this stupid site. Sahlman would have at least kept up with him in XC, if not beaten him, and he is 6 seconds faster in the mile, and 8 seconds faster in the 3200. That’s what we in the biz call, “not even close”

Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, Sahlman.

You call it recency bias because you need the past to mean something. Anyone paying attention knows that participation in this sport has seen gargantuan jumps in the past decade and a half. That is the reason for increased performances. Cope.

bump

I think he needs to get the 2 mile outdoor record and improve his mile time to be in the conversation. But both of those seem possible, and even likely, at this point.

Something to think about….Ritz ran away from Hall and Webb at Footlocker. Webb and Hall are AR holders and never had super shoes. I think that puts the quality of Ritz XC in context.

If your list doesn’t start with Ryun, that is complete recency bias.

nah. Verzbicas should be on the mt rushmore before Dathan.

Verzbicas >> ritz

nxn/FL double win over Lutz, Futsum, Ches, Moussa vs FL win over Hall and Webb

Indoor triple crown including a 14:06 5k performance

8:29 & 3:59 >> 13:44

8:29 is worth 1098 according to IAAF or WA whatever you wanna call them lol

13:44 is worth 1051

Verzbicas seems superior overall vs Dathan

Combined 3000/3200/2M list (expressed as 2M):
8:29.46 *Verzbicas’ 2011

8:34.40 Fernandez 2008

8:35.13i+ N. Young 2020

8:35.23i+ *L. Young 2022
8:36.3 Nelson 1979
8:37.68i+ Hunter 2016
8:39.04 Kessler 2021
8:39.15i Cheserek’2013 8:39.40+ Hasty 2018
8:40.0i Lindgren 1964

Verzbicas>>>Sahlman at the moment too

looking at their pr's

Verzbicas 3:59 and 8:26 3200m converted or 7:51 3k conversion

combined mile/3200 = 12:28

vs

Sahlman 3:58 and 8:34 3200m

combined time 12:32

I’m old, so recency bias is not a problem for me! Honestly, after Ryun the rest on this list are just pretenders. It’s a Rushmore of 1. When Ryun was in HS he was one of the top 5 milers in the world. He beat Snell head to head for heaven’s sake. That’s like Sahlman lining up and beating Jakob or Tim. How can you compare Sahlman, or any off them, with that level of performance?

I am assuming everyone is talking about more than just the mile/1500.

there isn't a runner on the top 10 lists for all 3 events mile/2 mile/ 5k

Cheserek comes the closest being top 10 in the 2 mile, 3k steeple, 5k AND 10k.

But using the 2 most popular highschool distances

Verzbicas has the best cumulative time. 12:28

I know you old guys like Ryun, but I don't see a logical argument for why he was in a totally different level than Kessler who ran 3:34 (about 4 seconds faster than Ryun). Do people now have to run 10 seconds in the mile faster than Ryun just to be as good as him?

My list goes like this:

XC - Ritz, Nico, Eddy Ches, Verzbicas, Colin, Fernandez

Track distance (3k, 32, 2mi, 5k) - Verzibicas, Lindgren, Nico, Fernandez, Colin, Nelson

Track mid distance (1500, mile, no 800's because im ignorant) - Jim Mothafuggin Ryun, Kessler, Webb, Colin, Hunter, pleasedontkillmeforthisbut Rheinheardt Harrison

If you add up all the points each repeating person gets on my little subjective list it goes:

Nico - 9

Verzbicas - 9

Fernandez - 4

Colin - 7

Lindgren is basically a superior version of Dathan to me.

the argument against Jim Ryun is is someone wants to use the whole top 5 in the world argument. then lets compare him to the current top 5 in the world. no way he competes with guys like Jakob, Kerr, Timothy, Hocker. He wouldn't even beat Yared Nuguse.

Ryun’s era was slower. While his world standing was higher, if you dropped him into 2022 and expected him to be a 3:28 dude in HS you’re kidding yourself.

Fwiw, Lindgren gets my vote over Ritz. Ran 13:44 ~50 years ago.

I’m not going to debate the difference in shoes and tracks, and it’s the natural progression of things for times to drop, though I do think Ryun would have run sub 3:50 outfitted with today’s gear and on today’s surfaces. Greatness really is defined by your position relative to your peers at that moment you are competing. In HS Ryun was one of the top middle distance runners on earth. He was not simply the best HS runner, he was in the conversation for best middle distance runner period. He was on the cover of SI! Kessler is very far from that level.

People who have Webb on a list and not Ritz weren't following the sport in 1999-2000. Not even on the same planet. Ritz ripped Webb apart two years in a row.

You can't compare times across generations.

We've got cinder tracks, super shoes, time trial race opportunities versus local invites, and more.

The best way to handle this is in comparison to the best at the time.

Ryun was one of the best in the world. Beating Snell heads up in high school. Lindgren was among the best in the world in HS.

Webb finished 5th at the Pre classic 4 seconds behind the best in history (El Guerrouj), and less than half a second behind Lagat.

Sahlman is great. But you can't compare his times to past eras. Only to his own era. For Sahlman to get on the Mt. Rushmore, he's got to be significantly faster than Kessler in the 1500 or much faster than Verzbicas.

He's got to compare to his peers.