Bowerman vs OAC

Bowerman also has a doping scandal.  OAC doesn't. 

I think BTC easily wins. Better athletes in almost all events.

10 000: BTC (Moh, Grant, Woody, Scott, Lopez vs Klecker)

5000: BTC (Moh, Grant, Woody, Lopez, Centro all 12:47-13:00 vs Klecker, Olli, Beamish, McDonald @ 13:06-13:13) 

3000: BTC: Moh and Grant would both beat Beamish over 3k. 3:34/12:47 and 3:37/12:53 vs a 3:37/13:12 guy. Both BTC guys should be able to crack 7:30 in the 3k. Beamish isn't that young btw, he's 25, so older than Fisher.

1500: Probably a toss up. Both are 5k/10k groups with one standout miler, so I'd give this event less importance. Historically, BTC wins easily. However, Centro and Thompson didn't have a great 2021 and Hoare ran well this summer/winter, so we'll see how they race. BTC has stronger PRs w/ Centro (3:32 w/ Bowerman) Moh (3:34) Thompson (3:34) vs Hoare (3:32) and Beamish (3:37)

BTC is clearly better, deeper, but certainly nobody at BTC is beating Hoare at 1500 right now and Monson is awesome and getting stronger and stronger. She looks like she can hold her own against GDS or Cranny.

Yes BTC has a doping case. (And Shelby should be banned) But Ritz was coached (and had the majority of his success) under Salazar. The fact that the OAC guys are ripping on the UAC doesn't sit well with me. Ritz openly said he was on thyroid meds and has more likely than not seen/participated in all the shady/grey zone/illegal stuff himself. It baffles me that everyone hypes this group up (granted, they are good runners and seem like nice people) and completely ignore the fact where their coach was involved.

Hoare is a class apart in the 1500, BTC has no one close. Over 3000, I'd take Fisher, Ahmed, and Scott ahead of Beamish, and Kincaid would probably out-kick him.

If Obiri joins OAC then all bets are off on the women's side, she's clearly better than anyone on the BTC roster. They'd be lucky to be within 5 seconds of her

We can speculate about Ritz all we want (and I agree he did shady stuff with the thyroid meds) but at the end of the day the clear cut difference is that BTC has an athlete serving a ban and the other group doesn't.

I agree with you. I just think it's weird that everyone praises Ritz w/o mentioning his questionable time at the NOP

100% agree.  When a training group makes you sign an NDA...yea you are doing some shady stuff.

Monson is running great right now and is at the tope tier of North American runners, but GDS and Cranny both closed the final 3k of their 5ks at about the same pace as Monson's recent 3k. Hopefully, Monson can step up further to give us a good race!

None of us have to choose sides. I like seeing both do well. The OAC guys should definitely see if they can look as silly as Grant Fisher doing his activation drills with the therabands. That may be the secret to Morgan McDonald's comeback.

Both programs have connections to dopers. You'd be hard pressed to find a successful program at that level that doesn't have some level of connection if you look at coaches, agents, sponsors. I choose to believe all of these athletes are not doping until there is strong evidence to suggest otherwise. There isn't any evidence to suggest the OAC team is, and there isn't evidence to suggest the BTC team has a systematic approach to doping. Any doping seems to be bottom up.

Agreed on Fisher/Ahmed/Scott v Beamish. Beamish' PB is 7:39.50. Fisher closed his 5000 in 7:38.80. So was able to run a faster 3k even after doing 2k at 13:08 pace. Sure Beamish closed quickly and probably has more in the tank, but I think that shows the top BTC guys have a lot more to give there over 3000.

On the women's side, the top OAC women are Monson and Hurta. I don't think this is the blow out another poster said, though still a BTC win. Hurta loses to both Staffords over the 1500 and at least to GDS over the 800. Monson v Cranny over 10 is interesting and it's a shame it looks like Monson won't be racing the Sound Running Ten in March. Monson beat Cranny at Trials but it also seems Cranny is on a new level this year. Over 5000 though it looks like it would be the two BTC women.

Obiri would make that interesting. Again though, I don't think it would be a blow out. Obiri slowed down last year. Her fastest time was a 14:26 despite being in races that went faster. In Oslo she had to dig deep to hold off Eilish McColgan. She ran 8:33 and 8:34 over 3000m in races she came 4th and 3rd respectively. She saved the best for the Olympics, but also was helped by Tseguy not being fully healthy, Niyonsaba being DQ'd plus Taye and Teferi having peaked for ETH trials rather than Tokyo.

Of course I'd bet on Obiri to win in a 5000, but it could be close as she seems to be trending slower while her would be opponents are trending up. And tbh, on current form I'd take GDS over 3000. The woman closed a 5000 in 8:30 and still managed a 30s last 200. GDS is clearly in 8:25 or better shape - peak Obiri managed 8:22. She would need to front run that kind of time to beat the Canadian right now, cause she doesn't have the top 3:57 speed she used to have to hold off Stafford's close.

BTC dopes and are tired to an evil company, Nike.

OAC don't get popped and blame burritos an On isn't evil.

This is what I find annoying about the sport. There are so many stray events and we don’t get enough of the match ups the fans want to see. Everybody is just off doing their own thing with competition plans that don’t match up. It undermines interest. Monson should have been in that 5K at BU. Sure, it’s great the Teare and Hocker went for the AR in the mike, but it would have been a lot more interesting to see them in the BU 5K. There should be a more coherent competition structure to build interests and rivalries.

Yes. Track is screaming for a centralized calendar. Or at least regionally coordinated calendars. Another big offender with this is Europe in June. You have numerous high quality, prestigious meets all running with so little time between them that it's impossible for an athlete to run them all. These meets throw big appearance fees at top names, so the top talent gets diluted rather than all competing against each other.

This year between May 28th and June 18th you have diamond league meets in Eugene (May 28), Rabat (June 5), Rome (June 9), Oslo (June 16), and Paris (Junr 18). 5 diamond leagues on 3 continents across just 21 days. Plus in the same time span you have historic and usually world class gold label meets (multiple WRs set at these meets in recent years): Ostrava Golden Spike (May 31st), Irena Szewinska Memorial (June 3rd), FBK Hengelo (June 6), Paavo Nurmi Games (June 14th).

There's a further 8 Silver level meets in this time period, plenty of which give fast times and world standards.

***17 world class meets in 21 days.***

It's stupid

(Although, both Monson and Kelati were schedule to run BU, both pulled out relatively last minute. Real shame)

You do not understand what a double Olympian is.

Uhh, the OAC coach definitely was a part of a program known for its use of grey area drugs. And Ritz has admitted to using IV for L-Carnitine. Would a "clean" athlete volunteer for that?

Their coach was implicated in the Salazar transfusions. Did you conveniently forget that?

The question is who wins in a tri meet or who is better Bowerman vs OAC vs the ADP/WCAP group of Simmons.

Bowerman is dirty and doesn't count.

And Ritz admitted to taking thyroid medication he knew he didn't need.

Whatever, he never got dinged by WADA or AIU, but I think some posters are seriously showing their youth when comparing ppl to BTC. Even saw one someone unironically say UAC > than BTC because they haven't had anyone banned before.

Glass houses and all that.