Why does Ortiz, a great player and apparent steroid user, get in, but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens etc.? Please explain.
Why does Ortiz, a great player and apparent steroid user, get in, but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens etc.? Please explain.
I think a lot of people are turned off by Barry's apparent psychotic narcissism. I grew up watching the guy and loved his skills, but he turned into a mega jacka-- at the end of his career.
Don't know what to say about Roger.
And as for Big Papi, he never came across as negative like BB did. I think the voters consider that.
Sure Ortiz was/is pretty affable, but the Minnesota Twins had him and he was not exactly looking like a future HOFer until Fenway Park and maybe something extra came along. Anyway congrats to Big Papi.
Youwrong wrote:
Why does Ortiz, a great player and apparent steroid user, get in, but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens etc.? Please explain.
My thoughts exactly. Funny how the world works. But of course, "no proof." Keep in mind though, there's "no proof" of a positive test with Bonds or Clemons either but plenty more damning rumors.
The Boston maraton bombing helped him as well as getting shot.
Youwrong wrote:
Why does Ortiz, a great player and apparent steroid user, get in, but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens etc.? Please explain.
Honestly, at this point it’s ridiculous. So many users, abusers and enablers are in. Excluding Bonds and Clemens is just silly. Ortiz himself said as much today. He knows it’s a joke that he’s in and not Bonds. Barry Bonds is without a doubt the games greatest living player. If the HOF does not include him, it’s making a mockery of itself and history.
He got busted using steroids but he always did the bidding of the establishment and so was loved by the media.
He pushed the official narrative of the Boston Marathon bombing.
Hence when he got shot over a woman in the Dominican, the media covered for him and fed us a ridiculous lie about mistaken identity. Nobody bought it.
carmine9 wrote:
He got busted using steroids but he always did the bidding of the establishment and so was loved by the media.
He pushed the official narrative of the Boston Marathon bombing.
Hence when he got shot over a woman in the Dominican, the media covered for him and fed us a ridiculous lie about mistaken identity. Nobody bought it.
He did not get “busted”. He tested positive for a couple of supplements that were legal at the time of the testing.
Ortiz is obviously deserving based on his athletic accomplishments. The fact that he was a great ambassador for the game is just gravy.
And I agree that Bonds and Clemens should also be in. Pete Rose too.
I love David Ortiz and his career was good enough to get the call to Cooperstown
masshole wrote:
[quote]carmine9 wrote:
He got busted using steroids but he always did the bidding of the establishment and so was loved by the media.
He pushed the official narrative of the Boston Marathon bombing.
Hence when he got shot over a woman in the Dominican, the media covered for him and fed us a ridiculous lie about mistaken identity. Nobody bought it.
He did not get “busted”. He tested positive for a couple of supplements that were legal at the time of the testing.
Not so. That was his claim, not the facts.
Ortiz did allegedly test positive for PED use in 2003, but it was never disclosed what exactly Ortiz actually tested positive for in that 2003 test. After it was reported that he allegedly tested positive, Ortiz apologized but defended his name, saying that the positive result was likely due to supplements and vitamins.
He was no big deal for the 1st 6 years of his career. Then he took off at the age of 27. Far more indicative of drug use than say Manny Ramirez who got busted and is far away from being in the hall. Manny was a great hitter out of the gate
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtmlhttps://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirma02.shtmlWhat if I gave you a few career stats of 2 players. Both played in same era....
Player 1:
7 Most Valuable Player (MVP) Awards
8 Gold Gloves (Fielding award)
14 All Star Games
.298 career batting average
22 year career
Player 2:
0 MVPs
0 Gold Gloves
10 All Star Games
.296 career batting average
20 year career
Which one of these 2 players deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?
MeHereYouWhere?! wrote:
What if I gave you a few career stats of 2 players. Both played in same era....
Player 1:
7 Most Valuable Player (MVP) Awards
8 Gold Gloves (Fielding award)
14 All Star Games
.298 career batting average
22 year career
Player 2:
0 MVPs
0 Gold Gloves
10 All Star Games
.296 career batting average
20 year career
Which one of these 2 players deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?
Drug use of each?
carmine9 wrote:
Drug use of each?
Both highly suspected.
One never tested positive for anything.
One did test positive for something (no one knows what it was, as MLB wasn't required to disclose it) but claims it was just supplements.
carmine9 wrote:
masshole wrote:
[quote]carmine9 wrote:
He got busted using steroids but he always did the bidding of the establishment and so was loved by the media.
He pushed the official narrative of the Boston Marathon bombing.
Hence when he got shot over a woman in the Dominican, the media covered for him and fed us a ridiculous lie about mistaken identity. Nobody bought it.
He did not get “busted”. He tested positive for a couple of supplements that were legal at the time of the testing.
Not so. That was his claim, not the facts.
Ortiz did allegedly test positive for PED use in 2003, but it was never disclosed what exactly Ortiz actually tested positive for in that 2003 test. After it was reported that he allegedly tested positive, Ortiz apologized but defended his name, saying that the positive result was likely due to supplements and vitamins.
He was no big deal for the 1st 6 years of his career. Then he took off at the age of 27. Far more indicative of drug use than say Manny Ramirez who got busted and is far away from being in the hall. Manny was a great hitter out of the gate
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtmlhttps://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirma02.shtml
If what he took was “never disclosed”, how can you claim to know the facts?
Youwrong wrote:
Why does Ortiz, a great player and apparent steroid user, get in, but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens etc.? Please explain.
Another argument for Bonds and Clemens deserving induction more than Ortiz is that they built HOF credentials before ever taking steroids. If their post-steroids stats were wiped off the records, they're still generational players. Ortiz became an all star only after getting on steroids.
carmine9 wrote:
MeHereYouWhere?! wrote:
What if I gave you a few career stats of 2 players. Both played in same era....
Player 1:
7 Most Valuable Player (MVP) Awards
8 Gold Gloves (Fielding award)
14 All Star Games
.298 career batting average
22 year career
Player 2:
0 MVPs
0 Gold Gloves
10 All Star Games
.296 career batting average
20 year career
Which one of these 2 players deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?
Drug use of each?
At this point it doesn’t matter if they used. Use was ubiquitous, it was widely condoned and enabled (Selig, Larussa). Use literally saved the game (Sosa and McGwire). Bonds is one of the 5 greatest payers of all time. This is indisputable. Last year Bryce Harper had a slugging pct of 0.61, in 2004 Bonds on base pct was 0.61 and his slugging was 1.4. It’s silly for the HOF to pretend he doesn’t exist. If they want to acknowledge on his plaque or in a display the controversy, of course, that would be fine.
I feel Bonds deserves to be in. He is a first ballot HOFer without steroids. His better than Ruthian statistics are reflective of what happens when a legitimate all-time great goes on PEDs.
What does bother me is guys getting in who never would have produced HOF careers without PEDs. I suspect Ortiz is such a player.
MLB already addressed this years ago. It is possible that he never tested positive for a banned substance when the tests were of questionable accuracy. After 2004, he never tested positive.
Bonds only 7 time MVP.
Clearly a Hall of Famer.
Surprised he is listed at 6 feet 1 inch and 185 lbs (!) in baseball reference
Second guy would need to know HRs and RBIs