A lot of hype is on Hocker and Kessler right now. The only guy to deliver records and medals in the past five years on the world stage in middle distance is Donovan Brazier. I'm leaving out Centro since I believe he's a bit past his prime so not putting him up in the conversation. Anyway, I will believe in Hocker when I see it. Right now he hasn't run a race to me that announces him as truly great. I hope he proves me wrong but I'm not seeing it yet.
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
Criteria for great is running down someone like Nijel Amos in a Diamond League race. Then I can start to believe in him.
The day Hocker runs down Jacob in a Diamond League race, I will shut up and eat my words.
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
Truly great requires at least an AR and a WC or Olympic medal. Right now, Mu is truly great. Hocker has potential, but not yet.
Wise Old Man wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
Truly great requires at least an AR and a WC or Olympic medal. Right now, Mu is truly great. Hocker has potential, but not yet.
This answer is correct.
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
They are the achievements of a good pro, nothing more. Track and field is an international sport and other than his appearance in the Olympic final, none of his other achievements would even be recognized by fans around the world. As someone else said, Athing Mu has achieved greatness, she's the hero you're looking for
High hopes wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
They are the achievements of a good pro, nothing more. Track and field is an international sport and other than his appearance in the Olympic final, none of his other achievements would even be recognized by fans around the world. As someone else said, Athing Mu has achieved greatness, she's the hero you're looking for
I will stand by this. What Mu did is even greater than what Brazier did. Only Madeline Mims compares to what Mu did.
High hopes wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
They are the achievements of a good pro, nothing more. Track and field is an international sport and other than his appearance in the Olympic final, none of his other achievements would even be recognized by fans around the world. As someone else said, Athing Mu has achieved greatness, she's the hero you're looking for
This. People need to realize that NCAA means jack sh*t for international track and field.
it is easy to make the comparison and take a pessimistic stance.
but aren't wheating's results kind of an anomaly?
also, wheating was near 23 when he peaked. and he did not have good 5k strength to sustain his 1500 when his speed let him down.
high school xc coach wrote:
also, wheating was near 23 when he peaked. and he did not have good 5k strength to sustain his 1500 when his speed let him down.
Sound logic here. Question: Do you think Cole Hocker will get a gold medal at Worlds or the Olympics AND get an American record in the 1500 meters by the same age Brazier did that same thing in the 800 meters?
TheSummerSoldier wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
also, wheating was near 23 when he peaked. and he did not have good 5k strength to sustain his 1500 when his speed let him down.
Sound logic here. Question: Do you think Cole Hocker will get a gold medal at Worlds or the Olympics AND get an American record in the 1500 meters by the same age Brazier did that same thing in the 800 meters?
I think the AR and a medal of some sort are valid speculation. Chances of gold are maybe 10-25%. If Jakob reitres after Paris, 2025 could line up well for him.
if he goes after indoor, that could increase his chances as well.
he may be a bit overrated by some, but he is fast, strong, performs well in rounds, and has youth on his side.
Wise Old Man wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?
Truly great requires at least an AR and a WC or Olympic medal. Right now, Mu is truly great. Hocker has potential, but not yet.
Plus more than just 1 season at the top. 1 season a flash in the pan.
Even Yakob falls short of great currently, and there's at least 2 levels separating Yakob from Cocker. Americans are delusional.
OozmaKappa wrote:
Even Yakob falls short of great currently, and there's at least 2 levels separating Yakob from Cocker. Americans are delusional.
what's your flag?
Even Mu is not great. Mu is great for her age, but she's not great overall just yet.
If you take a look at 2021 top 5 lists for every event, the womens 800 is one of the weakest events currently. That detracts from the novelty of seeing teenagers dominate the event and win gold medals. The field is just much weaker than that of any other event to the point where a couple of teenaged phenoms can win medals.
To put it in perspective, an athlete of Mu's current caliber would not have medaled in the women's 10000m or 100m, and would have gotten bronze in many other events. But in the 800m, this year, she was all it took for a gold medal.
OozmaKappa wrote:
Even Mu is not great. Mu is great for her age, but she's not great overall just yet.
If you take a look at 2021 top 5 lists for every event, the womens 800 is one of the weakest events currently. That detracts from the novelty of seeing teenagers dominate the event and win gold medals. The field is just much weaker than that of any other event to the point where a couple of teenaged phenoms can win medals.
To put it in perspective, an athlete of Mu's current caliber would not have medaled in the women's 10000m or 100m, and would have gotten bronze in many other events. But in the 800m, this year, she was all it took for a gold medal.
What a terrible take.
Finishing 6th in the Olympics , he has already achieved more than Wheating. The 1500 is a tough field with two 3:28 guys in their prime and a bunch of 3:29 types around. That being said, Jakob was the only one as good at a young age as Hocker. Hocker has also flashed the best 100m finish of the field in a slower race, which was negated in Tokyo in the final. It did however allow him to qualify much easier than Josh Kerr who had to rely on luck to advance the first round.
high school xc coach wrote:
OozmaKappa wrote:
Even Yakob falls short of great currently, and there's at least 2 levels separating Yakob from Cocker. Americans are delusional.
what's your flag?
I'm American. I just dont like how we view our middle distance runners the same way we view our sprinters. That's delusion, theyre not the same on the world stage. Achievement on the NCAA level doesnt mean anything for middle distance runners.