Suicidal PAAVO training cult

morceli1978 wrote:

I don't get it. Is this system of training designed to mimic something Paavo Nurmi is supposed to have done?

I think the only idea is to capitalize on some dead runner's reputation to sell your program. Nurmi works pretty well in the German & Scandanavian midwest. There's even a marathon in Wisconsin named afterNurmi.

A person could get the same teach the body to go out hard in CC result by running the first half of distance intervals slightly faster than the second:

(guys)Mile reps in 5:00=first 800 in 2:25, second in 2:35.

(girls)1,000 reps in 4:00=first 500 in 1:55, second in 2:05.

This has been done for years by some good ones. No need to plan your life around learning to go out hard. And certainly no need to make some guy money doing the obvious.

Paavo Nurmi died in the first year that they held the Paavo camp. Is it possible he was offended by the training philosiphy attached to his name but was silenced before he could do anything about it?

I trained this way in high school and 3 years at my second college. There is a lot of good and a lot of bad things in this system. The PAAVO name I believe comes from the PPMs, since they are supposed to be even paced and PAAVO ran behind street cars at an even pace. So I'll go ahead and outline the system and then give you what I think are the pros and cons.

Off-season 8-10 weeks:

*Usually comes after a couple weeks of easy running following a season.

*PPMs: Pace Per Mile, You run two of these a week, on Tues and Thur, starting with a 2mile and a 3mile. They are run all-out, but even paced. During the 3mile you want to "try" to go through the 2mile split at your Tues 2mile time. Each week, or every other week, you want to add a mile to each. You can end up with an 8-10 mile PPM.

*EX:

wk 1- 2, 3

wk 2- 3, 4

wk 3- 4, 5

*Reasoning: The Thur PPM is always a death march at the end, but should make the following Tues PPM of the same distance easier.

*Each Saturday you run an all-out mile.

*CTs: easy runs, :45-:60 per mile slower than PPM of that distance. Say you've ran an 8mile PPM at 6:00 pace, so your 8 mile CT run would be 6:45-7:00 pace. The program calls for a strict 45 seconds but I think it's better to give some leeway.

Preseason: 2-4weeks

*Replace PPMs with Slow Intervals. Discontinue the mile

*SI times based on PPM times and number of SIs based on distance of max PPM. Say you did a 8 mile PPM then you'd do 4 miles worth of SIs as a long set. The short set would be one mile less, so Tues 3 miles SI, Thur or Fir 4 miles SI. Would like to have 2 days between SI workouts.

*Start at with 400s, progress to 800s.

*There's a chart that determines the speed from the PPMs. My best guess is that it's around your 5k race pace

*EX: 16:00-:30 5k XC runner....6-8x800 in 2:35-40 on grass

*Rest is 3-4 minutes between each, 6-8 minutes between sets of a mile....HR down under 130.

Season: 12-16 weeks

*Add a Pace Interval track workout.

*PIs are track workouts ranging from 200s to 1600s or even 3200s for the more advanced.

*At first you do 10x100 all-out and there's a chart that determines PI pace from this.

*The number of PI is one mile less than the number of SI you did...So if you did 4 miles worth of SI you would do 3 miles worth of PI max.

*Start with 200s, run 3 workouts before upping the distance: one week 16x200, next week 24x200, third week 16x200, fourth week 8x400.

*Lots of variation. Could actually split the third workout and add some of the next distance: third week 8x200, 4x400

*Speed I'm guessing for the 200s is a little faster than mile pace up to the 1600 which is a littler faster than mile pace

*EX: For 4:27 miler, 200s in :32-33, 400s in :66-68, 800s in 2:12-2:20, 1200s in 3:24-3:30, 1600s in 4:38-45

*Rest is standing 1:00-1:30 between each, HR down under 120, jog twice run distance after sets of a mile: 8x200, jog 400....for 1200s and above jog mile between each, 1200s could be run as 1200/400 sets.

*Goal is to carry over time of one distance to longer distance

Races

*The basic week is: Sun SI, Mon PI, Tue CT, Thu Race, Fri SI, Sat CT.

*It's not uncommon to have an SI workout either the day before or the day after a race.

*Also not uncommon to have two PI workouts in a week, with or without a race.

*Always have two SI workouts in a week regardless of how many races.

Fast Intervals

*These are shorter, faster versions of PI

*They come in during the last couple weeks of the season.

*Are either run at the end of a PI workout or as a workout on their own

*200s-400s run near all out, standing rest

*Not uncommon to have a total of 5-6 hard days in the final week: Sun FI, Mon SI, Tue PI, Wed CT, Thu SI, Fri CT, Sat Race.

Pros/Cons:

*Gets you in shape fast, if you can handle the workload

*Must have strong body to handle workload

*Works very well for distances up to the 5k

*Not great for long term

*Works mostly Vo2max speed and anaerobic systems (lactic acid)

*Not great for longer distances

Personal Experience:

*My first 5k XC race was 20:06, finished year in 18:13, then 17:35 next year, then 16;16, then 15:53

*In track first 1600 race was 4:57 then finished year in 4:37, then 4:27 next year, then 4:33, then 4:27, 3200m pretty much just last two years 9:36, 9:32

*In XC junior year team made it to Semi-State (IN goes Sectional, Regional, Semi-State, State)...school of barely 400 students.

*College women's team made it to NAIA nationals, but men's team did not do as well (longer race distance)

*Runners tend to peak out after 2-3 years, then flatline.

*Good system for short term (in HS you only have them for 4 years so you want to make them as fast as possible in that time)

Injury:

*In HS our top three were never injured. I was never injured in high school

*Key to success I believe is to be a rather bulky runner with slightly more muscle mass than the usual runner. Our top 3 in HS and the top 3 on my college team were all pretty bulky for runners. Those who got injured were your normal frail skinny runners.

If you have a strong body, race 5k or shorter and want to maximize your Vo2max and Vo2max speed then this is a decent system to follow.

Alan

Which Pa state champ the AA or AAA guy?

I'm a past-Paavo victim. I realize that some of my points may be based on the fact that my coach may not have been super, but nonetheless, I'd say he's at least the average coach out there. And he was trying to do PAAVO so I assume that this was the average Paavo-rendition.

In my experiences with Paavo, peaking is hardly existent. I spent many seasons having my best races early and mid season only to crumble as the championship meets rolled around. In addition to this, my teammates spent seasons injured. I was fortunate enough to only get injured once, however, burnout is another story. Every runner at my school who has EVER been consistent wtih Paavo has burnt themselves out. The paces are extreme, the committment grand, and those that make it through un-injured often fall apart and become stale. Some of the drawbacks that I've come up with are

A) paces are too quick. For the 'fast tempo' runs, you take your mile time, add 54 seconds and complete anywhere from 1-10 miles at taht pace (depending on what 'step' you are on). So often in my case, as a 4:30 miler I was attempting 4-8 mile runs at paces supposed to be 5:24 a mile. This is absurd for me an these "tempo" runs were basically all-out efforts. I'd leave my races in my workouts.

B) Paavo forces you to try to improve too fast. It goes by the approach where you are trying to be faster each run. This leads to the question..am i getting faster or just putting more effort into these 'fast tempo' or interval runs?

C) it does NOT account for individual differences. I have teamates who cannot handle heavy doses of miles and intensity. However, Paavo not only has them increasing the intensty every week, but increasing the volume every 3rd week as well. For a high school kid running TWO FAST tempos a week at ungodly paces AND an all-out mile on saturday, you'd expect a break week every couple weeks. Not so, after 3 weeks add 10 miles to your weekly total

D) the easy days are not easy. I also have qualms wiht Daniels 'easy' paces. I feel these runs should be QUITE easy, but I do NOT think taht a high school runner like me, 4:30 mile, should be doing the majority of his easy mileage at 6:10 a mile. Well Paavo assigns these "medium tempo" mileages to be run at 1:40 slower per mile then your mile time. In fact, the only really easy pace day, is your long run of the week. This beckons the question, where is the recovery coming from?

As you can probably tell from these points, this does NOT bode well for long-term development. I've seen a 4:18 sophmore HS miler who now as a college junior cannot run anymore because of the over-intensities placed upon him in high school. While I think taht Paavo sucks in general, i CERTAINLY don't think there is a place for it in high school.

Some may argue that York High school uses it with success. But those kids are running100+ mile weeks. I think taht other schools are having greater success with FAR less work. Thats my 4 cents (yes I like to think its worth more than 2 cents)

It is my personal opinion that Pavvo is the devil. The "pavvo" system that my school has been using has been destroying runners for the past 25 years. Maybe and mostlikely its our coaches fault for coming up with some crazy version he likes to call "pavvo", but it either way I think the system is horrible. There are no real recovery days, in my opinion. Its not indiviualized and the paces for all the runs are much too hard for runners to complete, you end up racing your workouts and sucking when it counts.

Injuries are high, burnout is inevitable, suicide watch alerts become a regular thing. But hey don't let me stop you, go ahead and run pavvo. It only has only injured me and the rest of my team for life, no big deal. We also have many mental problems that have occured from the stress of pavvo, I fear for what may happen to some of us.

Again, who has been successful off of this program? Who do they tout as an example of long term success?

My only experience with PAAVO is being around H.S coaches coaches that use it. What I have found is that none of them had a clue about distance running and this was their method around that.

I used PAAVO my four years of High school and it took me from being a 21:45 5k runner to a 15:56 All-Stater with a chance to run at college in 4 years.

Is PAAVO for everyone? nope, certainly not. I think there are a lot of good things in there and that the basic ideas are excellent, however you need a coach who's smart enough to listen to his athletes and adjust to them.

I'm not a strong runner, i'm 5'11" and weighed 130-135 in high school...and i was never injured (except for dumb things that i did to myself). I ran 70-85 miles per week my junio and senior years.

I think the main thing is that you, like any system, can't expect to follow it to the T all the time. Pay attention to your bodies and what's going on. Have a coach with some brains and the system can work. We've had multiple state champions and all staters that were just normal kids with minimal talent but were willing to work hard because of the PAAVO system.

If i were a coach...I'd use it.

I'm not sure exactly what individuals used the program daily, but I can tell you a few noteably teams and individuals that attend the camps:

Campbell County, WY (alecia craig, and always a national competitor)

Columbus North, IN (competitive nationally)

Tim Keller, IL/WI attended a few (numerous sub 9's in hs)

Along with numerous state team and individual champs (and dynastys in their respectable state) that no one would know if i named them (9:15 two milers and such).

As a past user of the system (5 years), I learned the program inside and out. It contains some positive and negative aspects, as most programs do. From what I took from my years, it is definately a program for durable runners. It brings good results over time, with those who stick with it, and quick results to beginning runners, but the time in between can be trying.

And by the way, the name paavo came from admiration from the great finnish runner paavo nurmi, one of the best runners of all time. Also, the culminating run at some of the earlier camps (70's and 80's) being held at the paavo nurmi marathon.

I ran it in HS and the system in my opinion sucks for talented runners unless it is modified. The reason is you will run way too fast way too often and will be so tired by the time the season starts that you won't run as fast as you would have had you been sane and ran less intense.

Problem with the system starts at the very beginning. You do a long run on monday, then follow it with an all out run on tuesday. i did my 4 hour "PPM's" in HS under 21 minutes, which meant that my recovery run the next day was supposed to be 45 secs above that pace. I would always end up having to run like 5:50ish pace on my easy days after an all out run. then you did it again on thursday, but for longer. You were supposed to run the first 4 miles as fast as tuesday, then hold on for the next however long. Friday you did the same thing as wednesday but with the pace per mile of your wednesday all out and hang on run. saturday you do a time trial on 1 mile if you dont have a race, and it is your longest mileage day of the week. Sunday is another "CT" run at +45 sec from your pace per mile on Thursday.

Way too much hard running for someone who runs fast. It works to an extent because HS races are so short. I did ok on it cause i modified it heavily so i was basically doing 40 mpw and only doing the long run and hard tuesday run. I would do a light tempo on thursday instead of another all out run, and easier runs on friday saturday and a day off or 4 miles on sunday.

The one thing this program IS good at is getting kids to run hard. It will turn a mediocre kid into a halfway decent runner just by shear volume and intensity. A kid who would normally run 18:00 for 5k will run close to 17:00 just because of the work. It isn't necessarily a good return on your investment effort wise, but it gets kids with no talent running like kids with talent who don't train... And this is why teams have had success, because at the HS level all it takes is 4 guys running 17 or so and one talented guy running 16 to have a championship team.

I never ran on the paavo system but I have read a ton on it since a few of my college teammates did it in hs, and I crave just about any running knowledge. Most of their team was hurt or raced great early in the season and terrible later. Every once in awhile a kid that had so much talent it was hard to screw him up go through and the coaches would say it works bc once in 10 years they had an incredibly talented runner survive and run well. Columbus North hs is not competitive "nationally" on a regular basis, the past two years were the first in I don't know how long they actually did well in the state. I don't recall them ever placing in the top 5 before that. It sounds like a tremendous amount of talent is in that group. None of the paavo teams are consistently competive bc it doesn't work. Newton does not run a paavo style training plan. He does do a ton of volume, but he is smart enough to know that you don't run 4 miles as hard as you can and keep going. The system is more like a cult than a training plan. It has a stupid premise that if you kick your own ass and be tough and eat nails and torture yourself and be a man then you are better bc of it in running. It only makes sense to coaches who don't know anything about running and then buy into the easiest pre-packaged plan. Most of the guys on here who have had success using it, have said they and their coaches modified things. There is no science behind it and no real proven results besides the once in 10 years a great individual or even more rare 5 great individuals come through and "prove" it.

I wasn't really taking a side, just giving my insight, seeing as how I have been through the camps and many years of the program. This is what I gathered in my 5 years:

1. The program actually works. As Mr. Rabbitt said, it does a really good job of taking a mediocre/average, hardworking runner and turning him into an above average (not great) runner.

2. There are many better programs out there, for numerous reasons that have already been give 5 times each.

3. Few to none "national champion" caliber individuals are produced, mostly unknown 9:15-9:25 two milers

Give Columbus North a break. So they're not York or Mead, not many teams are. I think Campbell County, WY is a paavo team that compares more to these two.

If Rabbit is who I think he is, he's turned into an excellent runner for Georgia Tech. ARE you the Kyle Rabbit who ran for Landmark? I saw you run at Mid-South quite often. Glad to see that you survived and are racing so well.

I tend to take a longer-view aerobic approach here at Baylor, hoping the guys continue to develop in college. My guys tend to go to academic Div 3 schools, so they don't need super-fast times to get noticed. Occasionally, we'll pop one to Stanford, Wake, where they can make the next jump.

Interesting PAAVO result.

Alan

thats what gets you guys at Landmark all those state championships.would probably be worth it to stand on top of the podium at least once in a coaches lifetime....

Yeah that Kudla girl was a footlocker finalist as junior, not quite as a senior, and hasn't approached that level since...to elaborate on products of the Paavo system.

mikeD wrote:

thats what gets you guys at Landmark all those state championships.would probably be worth it to stand on top of the podium at least once in a coaches lifetime....

Follow the Moyakka.

Victoria Jackson was another PAAVO Alum, as well as Adam Wallace and Jamie Kryzminski.