Vaccines are extraordinarily safe

real doctor wrote:

And, Precious Roy, the other difference between you and me - other than the fact that I *am* a real doctor - is that I don't claim to know the right answer to everything. In every single one of your posts you speak with a level of absolute certainty. I'd recommend some humility sometime.

Personally, I find this subject interesting to discuss. I don't claim to know what's right or wrong but I enjoy discussing it. I like to learn and try to stay open minded. I do, in fact, change my mind when presented with new data or new ways of looking at things. I don't believe I've ever see you admit wrong anywhere on these message boards.

One of the most remarkable things about the pandemic has been the hubris of everyone who seems to know the solution. As Socrates said, and I'm told he was pretty wise, all I know is that I know nothing.

real doctor wrote:

Folger wrote:

You do realize this, right? Even if you're a healthy, 20 something and primarily care about your own health you should get the vaccine. It's amazing how people who haven't studied science beyond high school don't simply defer to the experts on this. If you don't get the vaccine, you will get covid. It's a choice between covid and the vaccine.

I've got a doctorate and that's actually false. It's not a choice between covid and the vaccine. We are all going to get COVID nomatter what. The vaccine reduces illness and death from COVID, it does not completely prevent infection with COVID.

Also, the vaccine will become ineffective within a year or two. Coronaviruses are single stranded RNA virus, they are some of the fastest mutating viruses out there. The vaccine against alpha will be even less effective against future strains than it is against the delta variant. Many colds are coronaviruses and this is part of the reason we don't have vaccines for the common cold. I'm not sure why no one is talking about this fact.

Now there's some misinformation going around: the unvaccinated masses are the cause of mutation and new strains. People are blaming the unvaccinated for the delta variant. Now, this WOULD be true if the vaccine were 100% effective against preventing infection (like the smallpox vaccine or the rabies vaccine), but since the virus can infect, replicate in, and transmit from vaccinated people, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are providing a reservoir for the vaccine to mutate.

All this said, I think it makes logical sense for the vast majority of adults to get the vaccine. At this point some people from clinical trials have been vaccinated for over a year and adverse effects appear minimal. But we should stop freaking out at people who aren't getting vaccinated. That's their own problem.

Lead Foil Hat XXIV wrote:

why young healthy people so worried wrote:

What is the worry for young healthy people that the vaccine is going to do them? Wouldn't it be the opposite? That unhealthy individuals that are immunocompromised should be worried about side effects?

If a person is young and healthy than the risk for the vaccine should be extremely minimal, right?

Wrong, imagine all of your neurons, or pancreatic cell, or liver cells presenting antigenic material at high levels on their surfaces....then your immune system develops a robust response to attack these now foreign surfaces (your cells)....over time your immune system slowly degrades these tissues, your body tries to regenerate, when this happens your immune system keeps fighting, and for many years you fight an oscillating battle of tissue degradation and renewal until your body gives up. Depending on the cells most targeted, the outcomes in 10-20 years could be diverse and devastating. If you are old, in 10-20 years you likley won't be around anyway, if you are young you are facing decades of life in misery or an early death or both. The trust is that we do not yet know if this will be a problem and we won't for another 10-20 years. The experiment has been run, keep your fingers crossed for those young people that have joined or been forced into this experiment.

Lead Foil Hat XX wrote:

Delta Variant of Covid wrote:

Well, for those under 18, about 0.9% of diagnosed cases get hospitalized. Seems like preventing that is a good benefit?

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

Also, most vaccine you get/got are for things that are a minimal threat because either the disease is not always severe (ie chickenpox, even polio is 70% asymptomatic), and/or because the community is vaccinated.

This is distorted information. Misinformation. Any child going to the hospital for anything that tests positive while there counts as a covid hospitalization, particularly in the liberal states reporting. The number is very low and the deaths are zero in many states. This all neglects that some children are vulnerable, those are the ones being affected and those are the ones that should consider the vaccine. Translating this to all healthy children is complete idiocy. Most MSN/CDC covid information is the true "disinformation". Their goal is centralized messaging and sticking to it even when the message is wrong.

Precious Roy wrote:

real doctor wrote:

I've got a doctorate and that's actually false. It's not a choice between covid and the vaccine. We are all going to get COVID nomatter what. The vaccine reduces illness and death from COVID, it does not completely prevent infection with COVID.

Also, the vaccine will become ineffective within a year or two. Coronaviruses are single stranded RNA virus, they are some of the fastest mutating viruses out there. The vaccine against alpha will be even less effective against future strains than it is against the delta variant. Many colds are coronaviruses and this is part of the reason we don't have vaccines for the common cold. I'm not sure why no one is talking about this fact.

Now there's some misinformation going around: the unvaccinated masses are the cause of mutation and new strains. People are blaming the unvaccinated for the delta variant. Now, this WOULD be true if the vaccine were 100% effective against preventing infection (like the smallpox vaccine or the rabies vaccine), but since the virus can infect, replicate in, and transmit from vaccinated people, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are providing a reservoir for the vaccine to mutate.

All this said, I think it makes logical sense for the vast majority of adults to get the vaccine. At this point some people from clinical trials have been vaccinated for over a year and adverse effects appear minimal. But we should stop freaking out at people who aren't getting vaccinated. That's their own problem.

If you are actually a doctor, you are making a good argument for stricter licensing standards.

COVID is a relatively stable virus because it has a “proofreading” enzyme that corrects potentially fatal copying mistakes. It typically accumulates only two single-letter mutations per month in its genome — a rate of change about half that of influenza and one-quarter that of HIV. The main driver of variants is the fact that so few people globally have immunity either through vaccination or prior COVID infection that the virus has had the opportunity to replicate on a massive scale.

And it really is a choice between COVID and the vaccine. If you are going about life as if COVID did not exist and are not vaccinated, you are going to get COVID if you live in the US. If you get vaccinated, you do have protection against infection. Add wearing masks, social distancing to that and your odds of getting COVID are minute compared to the unvaccinated guy going to BW3s every night to play trivia and watch old MMA fights. Vaccinated people who are taking precautions are absolutely not a reservoir for mutations. That is a complete lie and disinformation.

The mRNA vaccines are probably in the 40-60% range effective right now and a booster may get that back up to 80-90%, meaning that herd immunity may get back to within reach again. Given how transmissible Delta is, getting vaccinated is absolutely crucial at this point and anyone who isn't vaccinated is absolutely 100% responsible for the current crisis.