didn't know Centro had the wr!
didn't know Centro had the wr!
runandbike wrote:
Interesting questions. I think Lemond for TdF is a good pick. I can't think of another winner more recent than him who might have been clean. And then it's funny, going older than that, they were on all kinds of things that just weren't talked about much. So chances go way up that the winners were dirty. And hey, maybe there was never a clean TdF winner. I actually wouldn't be surprised.
That's a tough one for sure. There isn't any direct or circumstantial evidence against LeMond other than just winning the TdF. What's interesting is LeMond won the back to back Tours (89/90) but the 88 winner (Pedro Delgado) & the 87 winner (Stephen Roche) have some suspected PED use: Delgado testing positive for a masking agent (not charge) & Roche suspected of EPO use with his involvement with doping doctor Francesco Conconi. So, could there be a brief 2 yr period of a clean TdF with LeMond?
paris2024hawk wrote:
Mondo duplantis
Good answer. Definitely clean - not as clean as Sam Kendrick's fade though
Dubious Caesar wrote:
paris2024hawk wrote:
Mondo duplantis
Good answer. Definitely clean - not as clean as Sam Kendrick's fade though
Yep
You people are idiots. None of you have any evidence for any of these claims.
Too many people before and after Lemond for him to be completely clean. Enhancement drugs goes way back in the tour to almost the very beginning. I think you'd have to go back before the steroid era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
Tour de dope wrote:
runandbike wrote:
Interesting questions. I think Lemond for TdF is a good pick. I can't think of another winner more recent than him who might have been clean. And then it's funny, going older than that, they were on all kinds of things that just weren't talked about much. So chances go way up that the winners were dirty. And hey, maybe there was never a clean TdF winner. I actually wouldn't be surprised.
That's a tough one for sure. There isn't any direct or circumstantial evidence against LeMond other than just winning the TdF. What's interesting is LeMond won the back to back Tours (89/90) but the 88 winner (Pedro Delgado) & the 87 winner (Stephen Roche) have some suspected PED use: Delgado testing positive for a masking agent (not charge) & Roche suspected of EPO use with his involvement with doping doctor Francesco Conconi. So, could there be a brief 2 yr period of a clean TdF with LeMond?
runandbike wrote:
And hey, maybe there was never a clean TdF winner. I actually wouldn't be surprised.
.
Eddie Merckx was a doper and introduced Lance to Michele Ferrari. Merckx raced in the late 60s, early 70s, so I imagine everything after that is unnatural.
Tommy Simpson died on the TdF in 1967: "Tommy Simpson rode to his death in the Tour de France so doped that he did not know he had reached the limit of his endurance. He died in the saddle, slowly asphyxiated by intense effort in a heatwave after taking methylamphetamine drugs and alcoholic stimulants."
Recreational drug use was rife in the 60s, so I'm going to guess that maybe someone won it clean in the 1950s.
Agreed. I know we're all supposed to view Lemond as the golden boy of American cycling, but just like in running, how can someone clean have been beating others who were clearly doping. It makes no sense. When elite level cyclists are all within less than a percent of each other doping will push the dopers to the top
I hope Kipchoge never gets caught. The guy is a hero. I used to feel the same way about Lance. Has any good come from outing him as the best drug cheat? He inspired so many cancer survivors and the donations to the Livestrong Foundation dropped from $15.8 million in 2011 to $3.2 million in 2018. That's the real tragedy.
My mom has had cancer 3 times. Back when she was in remission the first time she read his book and fell in love with him. Once he was outed it all changed for her. She calls him a "cheat" and a "liar". I guess I understand, but I tend to see it your way. He did so much for the cause and inspired so many people to fight. He's still the best Tour rider there ever was in my opinion.
Tour de France expert here.
If my life was on line, I would bet there has never been a TdF winner that didn't "cheat" some how.
Here's the most concise rundown I can make:
The first Tour winner (1903), Maurice Garin, also initially won the 1904 version but was found to have cheated by actually getting car rides and train rides. The stages were 17 hours long. He was DQd, along with many other people. After 1904, it wasn't even sure the Tour would go on because the 1904 race was that rife with cheating. It was basically impossible to complete the course without aid back then. Dirt and mud roads, fixed gear bikes that weighed 40 pounds, wooden rims, and the stages might be 300 miles long.
In the 1910s one of the competitors dropped out and spilled the beans on what riders had to do to survive. Cocaine eye drops to stay awake, alcohol laced with strychnine to dull the pain, and of course cutting the course or catching rides whenever it was possible.
Fast forward to the 1950s and early 1960s, and the first 5 time winner Jacques Anquetil was loudly outspoken against the proposed banning of amphetamines. He was up front about using them, said everyone used them, and that it was not possible to race the tour de france without help.
So all the way into the 1960s, there weren't even any specific anti-doping rules to begin with.
Then from mid 60s to mid 80s, you had some anti-doping rules, but in most cases you might only get a time penalty if they managed to catch you. You typically were not barred from the race. I say typically, yet Eddy Merckx, the clear best rider of all time and the second 5 time winner, was busted twice for amphetamines and I believe was even kicked out of the Giro while in the lead.
All of the great French riders of the 1970s and 1980s have been rumored to be doping the entire time, and in fact Laurent Fignon (2 time winner in the 80s and the guy that lost to Lemond by 8 seconds) tested positive twice for amphetamines in the late 80s.
Once you get into the 1990s, I do not need to go into detail, we all know how EPO changed the world, and how a roleur like Indurain all of a sudden became a 5 time tour winner. Then you have Riis, Ullrich, Pantani (busted or since admitted), Armstrong, Landis (busted), and that basically gets into the 2010s with team Sky and all the smoke that surrounds them.
I do not think any Tour winner is free from cheating, although LeMond is generally regarded as the one most likely due to not having the European connections and showing massive talent as a teen. But I'm still suspicious because of the long history of cheating at the Tour.
TheOhioState wrote:
Stoppit Smith wrote:
Also, even if clean, Zatopek came before Bikila, so I say definitely Bikila.
Both good choices.
Zatopek - Soviet Bloc military man.
Bikila - Was close to the emperor Haillie Sallassie. The same emperor who had to suffer the conquest of his country just 20 years before by Mussolini and the new Roman Empire.
'It took the entire Roman army to conquer Ethiopia, it took one Ethiopian to conquer Rome'.
You couldn't have written a better script. Truth be told, it probably was written.
The GDR modelled their athletics system on the Ethiopians. Later, Ethipians like Yifter would train in Dresden with the likes of Beyer and Straub.
I know some of you would like to believe that Bikile emerged from the jungle without a concept of time, or shoes, but the truth was very different.
Oh Please wrote:
Tour de France expert here.
If my life was on line, I would bet there has never been a TdF winner that didn't "cheat" some how.
Here's the most concise rundown I can make:
The first Tour winner (1903), Maurice Garin, also initially won the 1904 version but was found to have cheated by actually getting car rides and train rides. The stages were 17 hours long. He was DQd, along with many other people. After 1904, it wasn't even sure the Tour would go on because the 1904 race was that rife with cheating. It was basically impossible to complete the course without aid back then. Dirt and mud roads, fixed gear bikes that weighed 40 pounds, wooden rims, and the stages might be 300 miles long.
In the 1910s one of the competitors dropped out and spilled the beans on what riders had to do to survive. Cocaine eye drops to stay awake, alcohol laced with strychnine to dull the pain, and of course cutting the course or catching rides whenever it was possible.
Fast forward to the 1950s and early 1960s, and the first 5 time winner Jacques Anquetil was loudly outspoken against the proposed banning of amphetamines. He was up front about using them, said everyone used them, and that it was not possible to race the tour de france without help.
So all the way into the 1960s, there weren't even any specific anti-doping rules to begin with.
Then from mid 60s to mid 80s, you had some anti-doping rules, but in most cases you might only get a time penalty if they managed to catch you. You typically were not barred from the race. I say typically, yet Eddy Merckx, the clear best rider of all time and the second 5 time winner, was busted twice for amphetamines and I believe was even kicked out of the Giro while in the lead.
All of the great French riders of the 1970s and 1980s have been rumored to be doping the entire time, and in fact Laurent Fignon (2 time winner in the 80s and the guy that lost to Lemond by 8 seconds) tested positive twice for amphetamines in the late 80s.
Once you get into the 1990s, I do not need to go into detail, we all know how EPO changed the world, and how a roleur like Indurain all of a sudden became a 5 time tour winner. Then you have Riis, Ullrich, Pantani (busted or since admitted), Armstrong, Landis (busted), and that basically gets into the 2010s with team Sky and all the smoke that surrounds them.
I do not think any Tour winner is free from cheating, although LeMond is generally regarded as the one most likely due to not having the European connections and showing massive talent as a teen. But I'm still suspicious because of the long history of cheating at the Tour.
spot on. Grand Tours are so incredibly hard the cyclists have always believed themselves privileged to get 'a little help'. the very extstence of motorcycle drafting and even the peloton is evidence of this.
Drugs etc simply werent regarded as cheating; maybe a little naughty at most. Opiates, alcohol, cocaine have been around for ever, strychnine was mentioned by h g wells, amphetamines since late 20's although their use really took off after WW2 with all the benniess that troops used, especially bomber pilots. one bloke famously did the entire 24hrs le mans himself and came 5th. 1949 was it?
Tom Simpson, whose monument everyone should visit, was a tragedy, but not a surprise.
Mr T wrote:
TheOhioState wrote:
Both good choices.
Zatopek - Soviet Bloc military man.
Are you suggesting that Zátopek doped?
Oh Please wrote:
Tour de France expert here.
If my life was on line, I would bet there has never been a TdF winner that didn't "cheat" some how.
Here's the most concise rundown I can make:
The first Tour winner (1903), Maurice Garin, also initially won the 1904 version but was found to have cheated by actually getting car rides and train rides. The stages were 17 hours long. He was DQd, along with many other people. After 1904, it wasn't even sure the Tour would go on because the 1904 race was that rife with cheating. It was basically impossible to complete the course without aid back then. Dirt and mud roads, fixed gear bikes that weighed 40 pounds, wooden rims, and the stages might be 300 miles long.
In the 1910s one of the competitors dropped out and spilled the beans on what riders had to do to survive. Cocaine eye drops to stay awake, alcohol laced with strychnine to dull the pain, and of course cutting the course or catching rides whenever it was possible.
Fast forward to the 1950s and early 1960s, and the first 5 time winner Jacques Anquetil was loudly outspoken against the proposed banning of amphetamines. He was up front about using them, said everyone used them, and that it was not possible to race the tour de france without help.
So all the way into the 1960s, there weren't even any specific anti-doping rules to begin with.
Then from mid 60s to mid 80s, you had some anti-doping rules, but in most cases you might only get a time penalty if they managed to catch you. You typically were not barred from the race. I say typically, yet Eddy Merckx, the clear best rider of all time and the second 5 time winner, was busted twice for amphetamines and I believe was even kicked out of the Giro while in the lead.
All of the great French riders of the 1970s and 1980s have been rumored to be doping the entire time, and in fact Laurent Fignon (2 time winner in the 80s and the guy that lost to Lemond by 8 seconds) tested positive twice for amphetamines in the late 80s.
Once you get into the 1990s, I do not need to go into detail, we all know how EPO changed the world, and how a roleur like Indurain all of a sudden became a 5 time tour winner. Then you have Riis, Ullrich, Pantani (busted or since admitted), Armstrong, Landis (busted), and that basically gets into the 2010s with team Sky and all the smoke that surrounds them.
I do not think any Tour winner is free from cheating, although LeMond is generally regarded as the one most likely due to not having the European connections and showing massive talent as a teen. But I'm still suspicious because of the long history of cheating at the Tour.
Where is the evidence that Hinault doped?
If you really were a Tour de France expert as you claim, you would be able to give me a reasonable reply?
You say "if my life was on the line" but this is just hyperbole.
he never got nicked but his actions assisted dopers.
Then he went for Froome to try to save his reputation.
He supported dopers and spoke out against those trying to catch dopers.
The badger was a doped up badger.
Harambe wrote:
Centro
He has a world record in what?
nailed it wrote:
Harambe wrote:
Centro
He has a world record in what?
Tied the world record for most gold medals in the 1500 by an American.
While I would like to believe Lemond was clean, reading this many years ago leads me to believe it's unlikely given the culture of the sport https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Chain-Cycling-Yellow-Classics/dp/0224061178
Boston 18 wrote:
nailed it wrote:
He has a world record in what?
Tied the world record for most gold medals in the 1500 by an American.
Cool. I'm tied for the 2nd best performance in that category, just behind the few guys who are tied for first.