uh oh stinky wrote:
Keep in mind they're at 5300 ft. Things are a little more difficult up there.
Hmm that's actually a good point. I don't have any experience with altitude, would it really affect them that much (especially considering they live there year round)?
quasilogarithm wrote:
I will never understand how running can effectively be someone's job and they still only run an hour or so a day (~70mpw at their level). Americans (or, at any rate, anyone training in an `american' system), just seem to purposely handicap themselves by refusing to train beyond a high school senior level.
World class XC skiers or cyclists would laugh at the thought of training 1 hour per day.
Well,, wrote:
quasilogarithm wrote:
I will never understand how running can effectively be someone's job and they still only run an hour or so a day (~70mpw at their level). Americans (or, at any rate, anyone training in an `american' system), just seem to purposely handicap themselves by refusing to train beyond a high school senior level.
World class XC skiers or cyclists would laugh at the thought of training 1 hour per day.
But it is because of the high impact from running:
Elite runners do 500-600 h/year
Elite cyclist do around 1000h/year
Seiler S. Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training
` wrote:
So I was watching the latest Tinman Elite workout video today, and I was struck by how easy this workout seemed. Here's the video in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7xytVLE76sSo the workout was 2 sets of 1600, 1200, 800, 400, 200. Not sure what the rest was unfortunately. But, it seemed like a relatively light session for these sub 13:30 and sub 28 minute guys. I mean, the only reps that they ran faster than 10k pace (assuming 28 minutes is a good goal for them) were the 400 and 200 reps of each set. So in total that's only 1200m at anything faster than race pace.
Is it common for pros to train much slower than race pace for the majority of their workouts? I was a 13:5x guy in college a couple decades ago, and this workout seems like something even I could probably have managed. And I was very ordinary.
I just wonder if the stagnation of these Tinman guys is because they simply aren't running any significant volume at or above race pace.
Discus
If i look at the video, maybe the reactions are faked however, i have the feeling that a professional attitude and disciplin is lacking from these athletes ...
` wrote:
idjogger wrote:
Drew certainly seems to be.
Not even entered for Portland track fest. Hasn’t raced since an indoor 1500 in like February. Running out of time to get that standard.
Do you need the standard prior to the trials or can you get it after finishing top 3? Not entirely clear on that.
He needs the standard before the trials in 2024, not in a year when he's injured and unable to compete.
` wrote:
uh oh stinky wrote:
Keep in mind they're at 5300 ft. Things are a little more difficult up there.
Hmm that's actually a good point. I don't have any experience with altitude, would it really affect them that much (especially considering they live there year round)?
Yes.
according to strava the other day they ran 10 by 1000 at 3k down to mile pace and drew closed in like 2:27 or something. seems like a much harder workout than their usual tom shwartz stuff. maybe thats why they left him
1500/5Kfan wrote:
according to strava the other day they ran 10 by 1000 at 3k down to mile pace and drew closed in like 2:27 or something. seems like a much harder workout than their usual tom shwartz stuff. maybe thats why they left him
"10 by 1000 at 3k down to mile pace"
Whoa. Even adjusted for altitude, that is a bit mind-boggling. What were the recoveries???
10000 meters of contiguous work at 3000m race pace (or faster), is mind-boggling (questionable?) to this non-pro.
Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:
1500/5Kfan wrote:
according to strava the other day they ran 10 by 1000 at 3k down to mile pace and drew closed in like 2:27 or something. seems like a much harder workout than their usual tom shwartz stuff. maybe thats why they left him
"10 by 1000 at 3k down to mile pace"
Whoa. Even adjusted for altitude, that is a bit mind-boggling. What were the recoveries???
10000 meters of contiguous work at 3000m race pace (or faster), is mind-boggling (questionable?) to this non-pro.
Strava Link ? That makes no sense.
meant to quote 1500/5k fan, saying that the workout made no sense
My first suggestion would be to just follow a Jack Daniels plan. If successful with it, maybe they can call themselves 'JD Elite'. :-)
However, such an idea does require further investigation; maybe they are attempting to follow Daniels? Because in Jack Daniels' definition of "Intervals", he says, "Total running of an Interval session should not exceed the lesser of 8% of weekly mileage and 10k (whichever comes first)."* I'm taken aback by that latter point, because "Intervals", per the Jack Daniels Calculator (JDC), are roughly going to be prescribed around 5k pace at these guy's VDOT level. So such a session would consist of twice the volume of their all-out 5k race pace. I'm not a pro, but I think that is going to be a very hard and difficult session. Trying to do them even faster than that makes no sense (impossible?). So if they are attempting to follow Daniels, and they are trying to run their Intervals at 3k pace (or even faster), then they are woefully missing the target.
*Source of Daniels' definition of VO2max 'Intervals':
https://vdoto2.com/LearnMore/TrainingDefinitions
Let's take, as an example, Andrew Hunter, assuming he currently is in ~3:37 shape (at sea level) for the 1500m, having a 78.6 VDOT per the JDC. Per the JDC, his 'Interval' paces should be 4:22/mile (2:43/km). (Note, one with a 78.6 VDOT runs a 5k at 2:42/km, per the Calculator.). The JDC provides adjustments for altitude. For example if the 1k VO2max Interval session is conducted at 7000ft, the 1k's should be run at 2:51/km (instead of 2:43/km).
In addition, if I were their coach, I would have them all wearing heart rate monitors, using a chest strap during their exercise activities. Are these the guys trying to market that ring device? A good Garmin, like the Forerunner 945, provides recovery metrics and so much more useful info (GPS, Heart Rate, Stress-Test,etc.) than a simple ring device.
this is what I have wrote:
meant to quote 1500/5k fan, saying that the workout made no sense
I agree, I just checked and don’t see anything like that
This looks like a workout a good high schooler would do
1500/5Kfan wrote:
according to strava the other day they ran 10 by 1000 at 3k down to mile pace and drew closed in like 2:27 or something. seems like a much harder workout than their usual tom shwartz stuff. maybe thats why they left him
Lol 🤣
You're confusing his closing k with Jeff Thies's opening k in the USATF Road Mile.
Rest is important to understanding the workout as well as what the overall training has been, ie., are their heavier weeks, pull back weeks, etc
ccasey wrote:
Rest is important to understanding the workout as well as what the overall training has been, ie., are their heavier weeks, pull back weeks, etc
Yeah I wish I had that sort of info. Would have to have been very short rest to have this workout make sense.
Simple explanation: They have no idea wtf they're doing
` wrote:
idjogger wrote:
Drew certainly seems to be.
Not even entered for Portland track fest. Hasn’t raced since an indoor 1500 in like February. Running out of time to get that standard.
Do you need the standard prior to the trials or can you get it after finishing top 3? Not entirely clear on that.
Not sure about getting standard after trials, but has he even qualified for the trials?
idjogger wrote:
` wrote:
Do you need the standard prior to the trials or can you get it after finishing top 3? Not entirely clear on that.
Not sure about getting standard after trials, but has he even qualified for the trials?
Yes, he ran 13:17 in December, but has seemed to regress and then fall off the face of the earth after that.