Wilson Kipketer beats Rushida

Date of independence of African countries:

- Kenya: Dec. 12, 1963

- Nigeria: Oct. 1, 1960

- Somalia: July 1, 1960

- Tanzania: Dec. 9, 1961

- Cameroon: Jan. 1 1960

- Congo (Brazaville): Aug. 15, 1960

- Algeria: July 3, 1962

- Uganda: Oct. 9, 1962

Do think it's fair to say "Peter Snell" or the "Flying Finn" are among GOAT when you consider the above data?

Also what about a runner that have run only twice under 1:43 in the 800m and spent half of his top active years between injuries, illness . (Case of Sebastian Coe)?

Coevett wrote:

Lol, you're quite the idiot doping apologist if you think young non-African kids being told again and again that they don't have the right skin color to compete with those 'natural born runner' East Africans wont affect their motivation, desire, and self-belief.

There was actually a study done on this that confirmed it - I posted the link here once, can't be bothered searching for it at the moment.

Again, we're talking about middle distance (800 and 1500). I could see your argument if we were talking 5K and up. Oh wait, the Brits still stink at those distances. But they were amongst the best of at the 800/1500 not so long ago. There've been numerous white athletes who have medaled at the 800/1500 meters - Willis, Centro, Rich Kenah , Symmonds, Bucher, Borza, Rodal et al.

No schoolboy growing up in the '90s, '00s or '10s would have say a person of my skin color can't compete in middle distance. It's an absurd premise.

Passant wrote:

Date of independence of African countries:

- Kenya: Dec. 12, 1963

- Nigeria: Oct. 1, 1960

- Somalia: July 1, 1960

- Tanzania: Dec. 9, 1961

- Cameroon: Jan. 1 1960

- Congo (Brazaville): Aug. 15, 1960

- Algeria: July 3, 1962

- Uganda: Oct. 9, 1962

Do think it's fair to say "Peter Snell" or the "Flying Finn" are among GOAT when you consider the above data?

Also what about a runner that have run only twice under 1:43 in the 800m and spent half of his top active years between injuries, illness . (Case of Sebastian Coe)?

Not sure what your point is. Are you saying we can't even consider anyone competing before 1963 as the GOAT because Kenya wasn't independent? Why not say we can't consider Rudisha the GOAT because he wasn't competing when the British Empire was still in existence? Why not say we can't consider Rudisha the GOAT because most of the talented British kids had long become disinterested in a sport dominated by East Africans, many or most clearly doped out of their heads?

Snell was part-time, dominated both 800 and 1500, retired in his prime, and still ran times comparable to today's best Kenyans.

How fast would Rudisha or Kipketer have ran in the 60's, working during the day, a limited European circuit, heavy shoes and grass or cinders tracks, rubbish pace makers (if any), and expected to compete equally in the 1500m/mile, and no blood doping let alone EPO.? Not sure if either would have broken 1:45.

Coevett wrote:How fast would Rudisha or Kipketer have ran in the 60's, working during the day, a limited European circuit, heavy shoes and grass or cinders tracks, rubbish pace makers (if any), and expected to compete equally in the 1500m/mile, and no blood doping let alone EPO.? Not sure if either would have broken 1:45.

lol you're completely delusional

At outdoor world title meets, Kipketer has 3 Golds a Silver and a Bronze.

Rudisha has 4 Golds and no other medals.

They each set the world record 3 times.

Kipketer lowered the record by 0.62 seconds, Rudisha by 0.20 seconds in total and that's the difference between their PRs.

They are extremely close.

I like Kipketer's form better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jznJeZRBUxI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40IIbPaLZv8

Assurancetourix wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Lol, you're quite the idiot doping apologist if you think young non-African kids being told again and again that they don't have the right skin color to compete with those 'natural born runner' East Africans wont affect their motivation, desire, and self-belief.

Asterix, East and West Africans are equally talented for middle/long distance and sprints, correct?

Our friend Asterix won't give a reply to something that makes most of his statements look completely stupid.

Don't forget Rudisha ran 1:49.6 on a dirt track as a 15 year old.

Tend to agree. Rudisha has undoubtedly the best overall record over 800m (2 Olympic golds, World Champ golds, 3 world records and that front run to a WR in an Olympic final), and thus has to be recognised as the GOAT.

I agree, however, that Kipketer was a more versatile 2 lap runner in that he could win in any type of race (bar poor tactics), be it slow or super fast, and that his 1:41.24 in Zurich off a ridiculous 48.4 split, is intrinsically a better performance than the current WR. Rudisha was tactically savvy and usually ran to his strengths, i.e fast times from the front behind his own pacer. He was not 'obviously' capable of running in the pack off a slow first lap and then waiting to the last 200m to kick.

Having said all this, I do have the slightest suspicions about Kipketer:

1. Differing DOB - for years (while competing) his DOB was given as DEC 1972, then it started appearing as DEC 1970!

He ran 1:49.6 in July 85, at either aged 12! or 14. Yet by end of '89 (either aged 18 or 16) he had only improved to 1:47.0.

On most databases they seem to have agreed his DOB was Dec 1970.

2. Slow, plateaud rate of progression -

1988 - 1:47.0 (15 or 17)

1989 - 1:47.2 (16 or 18)

1990 - 1:45.7 (17 or 19)

1991 - 1:46.19 (18 or 20)

1992 - 1:45.62 (19 or 21)

1993 - 1:45.46 (20 or 22)

1994 - 1:43.29 (21 or 23)

1995 - 1:42.87 (22 0r 24)

It took him 6 years to move from 1:47 to breaking 1:45. This is quite an anomaly for an elite 800m runner.

3. The era in which he ran and excelled, the late 90's, was rampant for EPO use and there was no test until late 2000.

I am not convinced that Kipketer was using EPO, but I tend to feel more confident that Rudisha was natural and not assissted as opposed to Kipketer's rather unusual progression.