Depends on what events you are training for. If you are training for a 100k road race or a 24 hour flat run then there is probably more effective training than skiing up and down mountains. If you are training for Hardrock it will be a lot more beneficial than running in a pool.
If you want to get better at running you run a lot. If you want to get better at cycling you cycle a lot. Let’s go climb mountains with a GoPro to create content like Kilian bro.
I have a very strong feeling that the majority of the posters talking shît about skimo have not ever done it. Try skinning UP the mountain in skinny air, then repost.
africans dont ski wrote:
If you want to get better at running you run a lot. If you want to get better at cycling you cycle a lot. Let’s go climb mountains with a GoPro to create content like Kilian bro.
If you want to have fun in the winter you put skis on.
Fasterer wrote:
[quote]africans dont ski wrote:Guaranteed, if you're skinning uphill on a 25% grade for 3000 vert in CO at high elevation, you will become an aerobic monster beyond what most people can ever achieve by simply running. Same can be said for Skate Skiing long 40 - 50k sessions.
I have skate skied (no skins) up many western mounts, from Aspen to Vail and Beaver Creek, and have cross country skated all over the Northeast, focusing on Prospect Mountain in Woodford VT. But I have discovered that skiing is far less demanding than running. Your downhills skiing are aerobic rest time, while downhill running is aerobically stressful. Becoming an "aerobic monster" by skiing uphill is not guaranteed. It's good low impact cross-training. But unless you go all-out all the time, it is not really comparable to running. Running up and down a hill is much harder than skiing up a hill and down.
This is true. I have been a very very road fit runner with moderate mountain running experience and gotten absolutely walloped by skiers in mountain races. Mountain ultras are a different sport than your blessed road running. Also, skiing is way more fun than running.
Standard Setter wrote:
When Joe Gray participates, then I'll believe...
He's close - participating in the bizarre, not-that-fun-sport called snowshoe racing.
lolzzz wrote:
This is true. I have been a very very road fit runner with moderate mountain running experience and gotten absolutely walloped by skiers in mountain races. Mountain ultras are a different sport than your blessed road running.
Very true. Local skier here in the RFV, Ted Mahon, has raced Hardrock 10x and has averaged around 8th place for his efforts. Not a big entrant on the racing scene, but tough as nails and gets the job done when the going gets hard.
lolzzz wrote:
Also, skiing is way more fun than running.
Ultimately, this.
81611 wrote:
Very true. Local skier here in the RFV, Ted Mahon, has raced Hardrock 10x and has averaged around 8th place for his efforts. Not a big entrant on the racing scene, but tough as nails and gets the job done when the going gets hard.
Hardrock 100 is a very specialized race. But it's not harder than anything else you do with an all out effort.
Former Hardrocker here. I know what I am talking about.
Always Building wrote:
Have you ever heard of a thing called having fun?
You should try it sometime. It actually won't kill you, it will make you enjoy life!
Cheers
10/10 thank you for this
Trustfund detector wrote:
81611 wrote:
Very true. Local skier here in the RFV, Ted Mahon, has raced Hardrock 10x and has averaged around 8th place for his efforts. Not a big entrant on the racing scene, but tough as nails and gets the job done when the going gets hard.
Hardrock 100 is a very specialized race. But it's not harder than anything else you do with an all out effort.
Former Hardrocker here. I know what I am talking about.
I hear ya, for sure. I have zero personal ultra experience, but am close friends with high level guys with Leadville vs WS vs HR100 experience.
In Ted's case, his results point to his skillset favoring the Hardrock environment vs other shorter, lower altitude or less aggressive courses . No other race attempts come close to his success -
https://calendar.ultrarunning.com/runner/show?first_name=Ted&last_name=MahonIf he were to race Leadville or Western States, I'd see him as a 50-100th place finisher.
dsadasc wrote:
So basically, there are ultra runners using "ski-mo" for training because Kilian does it. Sage, Reed and others think this is better than being disciplined in the pool, etc. Ridiculous if you ask me. Start winning ultras if you think this is so good. Does Cody Reed even run ultras anymore? I think he got kicked outta the Coconino's.
In their early videos, the Coconino cowboys mentioned Nico Braza - never seen him in a video.
Cody hasn't ran anything since fall 2019, but that's not atypical given covid.
God forbid ultra runners like to do things outside of running that require attributes that are directly related, like aerobic develop vert training. Can you imagine being interested in cool things OUTSIDE of running? The horror!!
I'm always amused by how people on here post under threads and speculate about so much when they have absolutely no experience about a particular race/topic/sport. But such is the life of the LetsRun Messageboards! Granted I'm a N00b at skimo/skiing, but I've done a few ultra/mountain races in my day.
Any way consider some of these names:
Kilian Jornet
Francois D’Haene
Xavier Thevenard
Rory Bosio
Pau Capell
Nuria Picas
What do they have in common? Well they've all won UTMB (some multiple times and many in CR performances). They also ski quite a bit (mainly Skimo....or "Ski Mountaineering" or "AT ski" or "Randonee" or whatever you want to call it!).
Even for top American men (recent best performances at UTMB for American men) with a pair of solid 3rd place showings in Tim Tollefson (he does skimo in the winter a bit...esp since Mamouth gets dumped on!). Max King specifically told me a few years ago at a Golden Series race that skimo in the winter was the biggest factor that improved his climbing.
Sure, skimo is super niche and specific to "mountain running"/mountain courses. It's an expensive sport with a lot of specific gear. But consider the parallels to UTMB training/prep/demands:
1. You can rack thousands of feet of vert at high altitude up steep grades. Rea Kolbl just did 55,000' in 24 hours (for example). The action is much like. "power hiking" uphill, while downhill skiing requires good quad strength and coordination. That is the kind of specific mountain leg and core strength one needs to race well in Europe or even on a course like Hardrock. It's why pure roadies often get rocked in ultra-mountain racing initially. Their leg muscles aren't used to grades over 15-20%. Most American ultras and trail races aren't like that....but go race in Europe and see what I mean!
2. You get very coordinated with poles and using your arms. Using trekking poles at UTMB vs using them for uphill skiing is a very similar action. I'm using poles at UTMB.
3. You get used to carrying a 5lb + pack on your back full of gear. In backcountry this can be a lot heavier with avy gear, but I'm mainly doing "fitness laps" at the resort and use the same running vest. At UTMB. you'd be lucky to get your pack down to 4lbs... The logistics of gear and gear changes in skimo make gear in ultra-mountain running simplified. You dial in hydration and nutrition very well also!
4. There is a lot of sponsor over-lap with gear and promotion. A lot of companies like COROS or Spring Energy or Strava or Vest/Hydration pack companies love outdoor industry sports in general. Some mountain runners in Europe have a main sponsor in a brand like Dynafit etc. (even for their summer mountain running season).
The Euro attitude of "mountain athlete culture and experience" ties these disciplines together a lot better. Of course since "Skimo" is so niche in the US it's really only in the mountain access towns where people experience these things in the US....and being wealthy enough to buy all the gear and the time and energy to get on a resort or into the backcountry.
Being able to spike your heart rate and push the legs and lungs at high altitude mountain running trails I'd be running on in the summer anyway is pretty fun...especially when everything is covered in snow!
And didn't Cody just win Ultra-Trail Capetown last winter?
help me break 16 wrote:
dsadasc wrote:
So basically, there are ultra runners using "ski-mo" for training because Kilian does it. Sage, Reed and others think this is better than being disciplined in the pool, etc. Ridiculous if you ask me. Start winning ultras if you think this is so good. Does Cody Reed even run ultras anymore? I think he got kicked outta the Coconino's.
In their early videos, the Coconino cowboys mentioned Nico Braza - never seen him in a video.
Cody hasn't ran anything since fall 2019, but that's not atypical given covid.
Great reply Sage. LRC armchair dwellers gotta pump the brakes talking about things they don’t know. If skimo was more readily accessible/participated in in the US I think we’d see more of our athletes winning the big climbing races like UTMB. Just my two cents
dancing knees wrote:
Great reply Sage. LRC armchair dwellers gotta pump the brakes talking about things they don’t know. If skimo was more readily accessible/participated in in the US I think we’d see more of our athletes winning the big climbing races like UTMB. Just my two cents
Skimo will never be a big thing in the US because the lawyers of the ski corporations like Vail Resorts will say NO to that. Too much liability while not making enough profits from it.
US cross country skiers vs. skimo in mountain running?
David Norris and Scott Patterson had top 20 finishes in cross country skiing World Championships last week in their main sport. Norris set the Mt. Marathon course record several years ago, breaking Kilian's mark. He is one of the best climbers in the US, would probably be competitive with Joe Gray. Patterson is pretty close, does more longer distance trail racing than Norris, though both mainly race in Alaska. Morgan Arritola was a former US cross country Olympian, also doing well in mountain races. Caitlin Patterson (Scott's sister) has competed on at the World mountain running championships for the US. What has US skimo racers done?
The Ugandans and Joe Gray don’t ski. Best mountain runners.
Trustfund detector wrote:
Ski mowing is great for all these Aspenites.
Ding ding. They are aspirational social media brands as much as athletes. They do what their fanbase dreams of doing, which includes crazy skiing. But, it does sound like pretty good training. And it's also probably what they dream of doing anyway.
Ha ha I like your anonymous user name "Trustfund detector"...you know the "trust fund athlete" is a dime a dozen in a place like Boulder (and probably Vail for that matter). Growing up I never learned to ski because it was a "rich person sport" and my parents couldn't afford it for us. Last year I was finally able to get my first pair of skis thanks to a sponsor discount from Hagan. It's a blast. Skiing in general (downhill we'll say) is for sure a very expensive sport in the US....and a lot has to do with steep resort fees and the big business of it all. Even local small time resort Eldora (local to Boulder and Ned) charges over $179 for an "uphill pass" (for the year not the day!)...but you aren't even using the lifts ever!. At least places like Winter Park is still like $20 for the year and you have plenty of access for uphill on most slopes even during lift hours. I get it, there are avalanche mitigation and liability (injury etc) issues that factor into these costs. But the US is just a different dynamic from many countries in Europe. You just simply can't compare it (for Skimo or for Mountain Running). And obviously geography plays a big role. Run a mountain race or two in Chamonix and maybe (as an American) one can start to grasp what it means to be a "mountain athlete" in Europe vs the US.... I'm not saying one is "better" than the other but it's just a different dynamic and a different lifestyle....much like the Rockies and the Wasatch and the Cascades and the Whites are all totally different ranges from the Alps or the Pyrenees (to name a few). "Skimo" is such a niche sport. But the backcountry is generally free. Sure, guys willing to drop $2000 on a pair of 700gram boots might also be into doping and other "marginal gains". It is also a lot like how some guys might view high level road cycling and getting a lighter carbon frame bike. The fitness gains and demands all line up though..with mountain running. So all I'm saying is the Physics of the activity of skimo is quite specific to a course like UTMB or Hardrock.....or the Mont Blanc marathon or Zegama or even Sierre-Zinal.... Some of the greatest mountain races in the world! Heck, often times in these races you are running on actual ski slopes, ski resorts and/or ski lines. Here's a video of a skimo race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8S-umlFQTs
Trustfund detector wrote:
dancing knees wrote:
Great reply Sage. LRC armchair dwellers gotta pump the brakes talking about things they don’t know. If skimo was more readily accessible/participated in in the US I think we’d see more of our athletes winning the big climbing races like UTMB. Just my two cents
Skimo will never be a big thing in the US because the lawyers of the ski corporations like Vail Resorts will say NO to that. Too much liability while not making enough profits from it.