A determinant for having the NCAA Championships is how many schools in that sport are actually competing. If the number is less than half, they won't have a championship. The number of schools in D.III that are competing is dramatically less than in the other 2 divisions. That's why the meet was cancelled, because it won't be a truly competitive championship.
I was a 1:56 800 meter runner in high school and walked onto the track team at a Pac-12 school. If I had to go back and do things all over I would do it again because I loved running. However, I also have to say that things didn't go as planned. I only ran track 3 1/2 months out of the year in high school as I spent most of my time playing and training for basketball. Once in college I was thrust into the cross country program and the injuries followed not too far behind that. I had never been injured in high school. I expected myself to definitely run under 1:50 by the time I left. Did not happen. There's a chance you may not be given the same shoes/equipment as the scholarship athletes. More than likely they will get their gear first and you will get what's left. A scholarship athlete who runs the same event as you may not be on the same training plan as you. I'm not saying all these things to knock walking on because as I said earlier I would do it again if presented with the same situation. You just need to be aware that at this point money comes into play and schools will invest the most time and effort into those they're giving money to. However, if you throw down some fast times the game will change and they will invest more time/money in you. It's all about performance.
D3 Coach wrote:
2 years in a row indoor NCAA nationals has been canceled, and that makes 4 straight championships for D3 runners. The message being sent to our kids is very clear. Especially as we see D1,2 xc/tf happening all over the country. It's also sad to me that the coverage of this from Letsrun and USTFCCCA has bascially been non existent. As part of the running community Id love to see people rise to the occosaion and help these athletes.
Why? They’re D3 runners for a reason.
Redonculous Maximus wrote:
D3 Coach wrote:
2 years in a row indoor NCAA nationals has been canceled, and that makes 4 straight championships for D3 runners. The message being sent to our kids is very clear. Especially as we see D1,2 xc/tf happening all over the country. It's also sad to me that the coverage of this from Letsrun and USTFCCCA has bascially been non existent. As part of the running community Id love to see people rise to the occosaion and help these athletes.
Why? They’re D3 runners for a reason.
Annnnd....what reason is that?
No matter what Neanderthal
*neanderthal reason you come up with on that, it doesn't change the fact that a select number of guys run DIII who could compete WELL, f not necessarily win, on a DI level. Those guys slip through crack or make their own choices....but screw them too, I guess, huh?
Kvothe wrote:
Cooper the p ooper wrote:
The NCAA will fold without march madness. Many DI track teams will be cut in the next year or two. I'd honestly rather be DIII right now.
D1 sports programs are going to be hurting and looking to cut costs to fuel their mega expensive basketball and football programs after this year and the last. I'd rather be d3 for the next couple years, where basketball at least is only on par with other teams in terms of expense. The exception is scholarship athletes.
DIII athletes 'bouta have the last laugh when they have more opportunities in a couple years lol...
Of course, there were hundreds of thousands of college cases, at least, and that likely spread to communities, seeding millions of fall/winter cases. The college students didn't have the worst of it by any means.
OldCoach in NE wrote:
A determinant for having the NCAA Championships is how many schools in that sport are actually competing. If the number is less than half, they won't have a championship. The number of schools in D.III that are competing is dramatically less than in the other 2 divisions. That's why the meet was cancelled, because it won't be a truly competitive championship.
Exactly this. They're transparent about the decision. It's not because there wouldn't be enough fans there or any of the other silly reasons people have stated.
Who are these runners that can win in D1? I challenge you to provide a few current examples.
D3 runners don't have scholarships. The sports cost the schools money. the kids are two levels below D1 and they are there to get an education. This decision does them a favor.
Marty Smitty wrote:
D3 runners don't have scholarships. The sports cost the schools money.
No they don't. These kids are paying tuition and making the school money. A normal cross country operating budget at a DIII is under 100k. For a school with 40k tuition, all it takes is 3 runners on the team who wouldn't be at the school otherwise for them to be profiting.
No. There is not a D3 school in the country that has anywhere near a 100% acceptance rate. They turn hundreds or thousands of kids away who would gladly pay the tuition.
That doesn't mean they want those kids.
Sports bring kids to these schools who would not otherwise be there.
No again. You think the average football player at UW Lacrosse is smarter than the average student attending the college? Schools frequently accept athletes that would not have otherwise have been admitted. And if the kid who goes to UW Platteville to run track would go elsewhere if there were no sports, where is he going to go? There are no sports at the other school either. It is the same pool of kids shifting one school to the right or left. Face the facts, D3 sports are going away.
Marty Smitty wrote:
No again. You think the average football player at UW Lacrosse is smarter than the average student attending the college? Schools frequently accept athletes that would not have otherwise have been admitted. And if the kid who goes to UW Platteville to run track would go elsewhere if there were no sports, where is he going to go? There are no sports at the other school either. It is the same pool of kids shifting one school to the right or left. Face the facts, D3 sports are going away.
I said, essentially, "if not win, would compete well". Nick Symmonds is the obvious answer about someone who theoretically could have won a DI title who competed in DIII. Maybe at a more dedicated program (DI) he would accelerated is progress more and as a senior been a verifiable DI title contender. Whatever you may say about him, it's hard to take what he did post-collegiately and then say "no he couldnt have ever been capable of being a DI title threat".
When I said "if not a title", I was referring specifically to AA competitors, and in recent history alone you've got the aforementioned Symmonds, Will Leer, Andrew Rock....there was ALSO a guy who went DIII and won and US outdoor 400m title post-collegiately well AFTER Rock was out of the scene (forget his name)...hard to win a US title (even in an off year) if at some point collegiately you were not likely to be at least a capable of being DI AA threat. That's me giving examples off the top of my head based on back when I was in the scene...which was YEARS ago. I'm sure the list of DIII guys who were DI capable AA guys has expanded from there.
who cares?
Make the championships for adults.
Set qualifying standards, and enter anyone who makes it.
Breaking championships into divisions is like certificates for achievement.
Soon you'll be having a college 'special championships'.
We have enough trouble funding T&F without events for 1:56 800 runners and 48 second 400 guys
Do not think all D1 schools are hurting. The Ohio State University for the 2019-20 fiscal year (July 1, 2019-June 30,2020), the department of athletics reported an increase in revenue of $23.3 million and a profit of $18.6 million.
But the point of this thread is that people don't want to cancel it now. You say that there are D3 runners who can win D1 titles. I asked for a few current examples. You can't even provide one. Cancelling D3 sports today eliminates nobody who is winning a D1 title. I don't know if anyone could even place. Yes there will be a guy every few years or so. That guy would go D1 if D3 did not exist. Face it. You tooted too loudly like people do about D3 until they review the facts and are shocked to see the drastic difference in level of competition.
Marty Smitty wrote:
But the point of this thread is that people don't want to cancel it now. You say that there are D3 runners who can win D1 titles. I asked for a few current examples. You can't even provide one. Cancelling D3 sports today eliminates nobody who is winning a D1 title. I don't know if anyone could even place. Yes there will be a guy every few years or so. That guy would go D1 if D3 did not exist. Face it. You tooted too loudly like people do about D3 until they review the facts and are shocked to see the drastic difference in level of competition.
I didnt see you asked for specifically for "current examples". I can't answer that simply because I don't follow ANY division enough to know.
Andrew Rock and Nick Symmonds had some carry over between their careers. Same with Symmonds and Will Leer, I believe. To me, that alone proves it's not as simple as just "every few years". It depends I guess, though; like most things it probably comes and goes in waves. I have no idea what the current stock of developing runners -outside of some the young sprinters in DI- is like; DIII or otherwise.
But you can't act like there isn't talent that comes out of DIII. Andrew Rock and Nick Symmonds own individual World Silver medals. Rock as olympic gold from relays. Those were dedicated DIII guys. Why wasn't DI picking them up from the get go? If it was as simple as "if DIII didnt exist they'd have just gone DI", then why WEREN'T they just DI anyway?
My point is, if you completely devalue DIII, and it disappears, might we shut off/out the guys who slip through cracks and end up as diamonds in the rough? Those guys deserve a path, too.
It was a different era, not all the same rules apply, but didn't friggin Edwin Moses come out of something like DIII?
Those guys were all 20 years ago. Many people didn't have cell phones and smart phones didn't exist then. Would you say that people can't live without phone booths for emergencies? Things have changed. The top D3 guy last year in the mile would have been 200th in D1 the mile. The top guy would have been 160th in the 3k. The top guy in the 5k would have been 165th in D1.
Go run fast wrote:
Those guys were all 20 years ago. Many people didn't have cell phones and smart phones didn't exist then. Would you say that people can't live without phone booths for emergencies? Things have changed. The top D3 guy last year in the mile would have been 200th in D1 the mile. The top guy would have been 160th in the 3k. The top guy in the 5k would have been 165th in D1.
Give me a break. By that logic if we put the NCAA and compared it to a higher tier of runner we could all just throw our hands up and say what’s the point of even having NCAA cross country when a 18 y/o farmer in Kenya can start running and smoke everyone in D1. Maybe we should just cut the whole thing? I’m sure you would have no objection, because they clearly can’t be serious athletes deserving of any sanctioned sport if that can be beat so handily........