Why doesn't Drew Hunter train with anyone at/above his level?

May 2019 - 13:21.18

Dec 2020 - 13:17.55

The progression is exhilarating....

You say there isn't the same type of pressures as at BTC, but you can sub that out for *expectations or *standards.

Being the fastest person in your squad is great for an ego boost but does little for development. Chasing slower teammates 'round part of your reps isn't a good long-term model, is it.

I bet half the people on this thread are 17:00 5k joggers. How dare someone train in an environment he likes surrounded by people he gets along with? What a horrible crime! Lock him up and throw away the keys!

Seriously, the average IQ of LR posters is decreasing every day...

British Guy wrote:

I bet half the people on this thread are 17:00 5k joggers. How dare someone train in an environment he likes surrounded by people he gets along with? What a horrible crime! Lock him up and throw away the keys!

Seriously, the average IQ of LR posters is decreasing every day...

It's not a crime, it may just be wasting his potential (which is the point of this thread, to debate whether Hunter is wasting his potential). How are you this simple? Please stay on topic.

it's hilarious how all the tinman fanboys take these criticisms of the group so personally. probably because they've all spent $500+ on tinman gear to look cool.

looking for truth wrote:

it's hilarious how all the tinman fanboys take these criticisms of the group so personally. probably because they've all spent $500+ on tinman gear to look cool.

Yeah and they always throw at these non-sequitors to distract from the main topic: Drew's actual results. They always say oh he's "happier" than the other runners, or he's "doing more for the sport". I couldn't care less about that stuff, I just want to see him run faster! All the personal details do not interest me.

Let's be honest boys, all the so called great coaches are considered to be great because they coach talented athletes, athletes make coaches look good. Was Mike Smith a great coach before he got to NAU and inherited a national championship team? Was Salazar a great coach before he started coaching Rupp and Farah?

The good coaches don't screw up the good athletes, they don't turn water into wine.

saying the coach sucks when he trains almost all of the top 5 high schoolers in the country is pretty ridiculous.

Can somebody please give me an explanation as to why Tinman is a mediocre coach?

It's not the mileage. Drew runs around 80 miles per week. Plenty of top level middle distance runners are in that range. Most of Bowerman is between 75 and 95. Most collegiate programs are around that range too.

Is it the lack of speed work? They do some fast stuff at the end of workouts but plenty of other groups do that too. They do fast 150's and 200's. They don't do pure speed work like 30's and 60's and that kind of stuff with long recovery but I don't know a lot of top American groups that do. I don't see the Oregon guys doing that. BTC doesn't. NOP and OTC don't.

Plenty of groups do mixed workouts too.

So what is it that makes Tinman a bad coach?

He's been with Tinman since he was 15 and it's been working fine for him. Aside from injuries and lyme disease, there are no disappointments in his career so far.

nikespikes wrote:

saying the coach sucks when he trains almost all of the top 5 high schoolers in the country is pretty ridiculous.

High Schoolers are not hard to coach. It's easy to make yourself look good when they naturally progress year after year.

ergebetbteg wrote:

Can somebody please give me an explanation as to why Tinman is a mediocre coach?

It's not the mileage. Drew runs around 80 miles per week. Plenty of top level middle distance runners are in that range. Most of Bowerman is between 75 and 95. Most collegiate programs are around that range too.

Is it the lack of speed work? They do some fast stuff at the end of workouts but plenty of other groups do that too. They do fast 150's and 200's. They don't do pure speed work like 30's and 60's and that kind of stuff with long recovery but I don't know a lot of top American groups that do. I don't see the Oregon guys doing that. BTC doesn't. NOP and OTC don't.

Plenty of groups do mixed workouts too.

So what is it that makes Tinman a bad coach?

If you actually look at some of Drew's workouts, you'll find that they aren't really that impressive, and the paces are much slower than you'd expect for an athlete of his calibre. BTC for example frequently has monster workouts that really push their athletes.

The fact that Tinman still has Drew getting injured with such soft training is why his coaching is poor.

johnny chaplin uh wrote:

Let's be honest boys, all the so called great coaches are considered to be great because they coach talented athletes, athletes make coaches look good. Was Mike Smith a great coach before he got to NAU and inherited a national championship team? Was Salazar a great coach before he started coaching Rupp and Farah?

The good coaches don't screw up the good athletes, they don't turn water into wine.

I completely agree with this, but a "good" coach should also not have a stagnant athlete. They are then classified as "mediocre" in my mind.

nikespikes wrote:

saying the coach sucks when he trains almost all of the top 5 high schoolers in the country is pretty ridiculous.

He has the reputation so people try to get him as a coach. All of those athletes were elite well before tinman became involved. Many of them were age group world record holder or national champions before tinman.

The injuries are a very fair point. Bowerman also has a high injury rate. I don't think Bowerman works out too much faster than Hunter given that Hunter is at altitude. They do higher volumes at paces a bit faster for their threshold work. The Bowerman athletes are also faster than Drew so they should be working out at faster paces. However, you have guys running slower than Drew running the same or faster paces in workouts.

We're also assuming that Bowerman is clean. I'm skeptical of all of the Nike groups, especially after "When at All Costs."

ergebetbteg wrote:

The injuries are a very fair point. Bowerman also has a high injury rate. I don't think Bowerman works out too much faster than Hunter given that Hunter is at altitude. They do higher volumes at paces a bit faster for their threshold work. The Bowerman athletes are also faster than Drew so they should be working out at faster paces. However, you have guys running slower than Drew running the same or faster paces in workouts.

We're also assuming that Bowerman is clean. I'm skeptical of all of the Nike groups, especially after "When at All Costs."

Of course, I'm assuming everyone is clean ;).

Some workouts I've seen with Tinman is that they'll do 5xmile but start at like 5:30 or something and cut down to 4:20, which really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He really likes to start the first few reps at "critical velocity" and then cut down. Whereas BTC stays at or faster than race pace all the way through. As well, I've heard BTC described as a "train". So that even the slowest guys (like Fisher) are hanging on the train with the fastest guys (like Ahmed and Kincaid). I think Hunter would benefit from something like that where he's just hanging on.

Guzman and Parsons are both within 2 seconds in the 1500 and 5 seconds in the 5k; that’s a solid group. If he tacks on an extra mile/repeat/whatever, he’s getting a solid day’s effort. He’s running strength workouts with 61 minute half guys.

How did Chris Derrick make it so far in college? Riley? Heath?

Just because they (Hunter/Derrick) could beat them doesn’t mean they can’t/don’t/didn’t do 95 percent of their work together.

Do your thing, kid...

` wrote:

British Guy wrote:

I bet half the people on this thread are 17:00 5k joggers. How dare someone train in an environment he likes surrounded by people he gets along with? What a horrible crime! Lock him up and throw away the keys!

Seriously, the average IQ of LR posters is decreasing every day...

It's not a crime, it may just be wasting his potential (which is the point of this thread, to debate whether Hunter is wasting his potential). How are you this simple? Please stay on topic.

IMO No he isn't. To be a good runner you have to enjoy it. It's impossible to train well when you're not enjoying your training, there are thousands of ex-pro's out there who can tell you that. Hunter is doing what he enjoys which can only be good for him.

British Guy wrote:

` wrote:

It's not a crime, it may just be wasting his potential (which is the point of this thread, to debate whether Hunter is wasting his potential). How are you this simple? Please stay on topic.

IMO No he isn't. To be a good runner you have to enjoy it. It's impossible to train well when you're not enjoying your training, there are thousands of ex-pro's out there who can tell you that. Hunter is doing what he enjoys which can only be good for him.

Experiencing pleasure is not always the best thing for you. I'm sure it's more fun and enjoyable to party all the time in college, but it's probably better to put your head down and study every now and then. Besides, it's not like Tinman has a monopoly on having a good time.

Had been interesting to see JS coach him.