Runners Tribe has an interesting article up where Bideau talks about how 1500 runners like McSweyn and Ryan Gregson have different strengths and therefore need to train and race differently.
Runners Tribe has an interesting article up where Bideau talks about how 1500 runners like McSweyn and Ryan Gregson have different strengths and therefore need to train and race differently.
It says he didn't run under 60 sec in training for the gap in between when he raced in Doha (3:30.5 Sep 25th) and the 3:50 mile (Dec 29th). He never said they never do it.
Misleading headline
that's remarkable
Bideau is an excellent coach.
The thing I’m concerned about is how he says speed work (faster than 1500 pace) is overrated, but then goes on to say that McSweyn has trouble keeping up in the final laps in races.
Interesting
I think that article just shed light that Coevett = Nic Bideau!!??
dogg wrote:
Bideau is an excellent coach.
The thing I’m concerned about is how he says speed work (faster than 1500 pace) is overrated, but then goes on to say that McSweyn has trouble keeping up in the final laps in races.
Interesting
It seemed more like he was saying that McSweyn doesn't respond well to lots of fast reps in training. I didnt read it as saying everybody should remove speed work from their training.
He also talked about one of his athletes running 50 flat in workouts, and McSweyn running some 56s in a workout, so obviously he does have his runners do some speed.
3:50 mile is a few seconds slower than 3:30 1500m, anyway, so it doesn't seem shocking that if he ran 3:30 a few months ago, continued to train but just not as intensely, he might come back out and run a 3:50.
A number of years ago, I was talking to Dave Smith about one of my athletes and the topic of German Fernandez's 3:55i WJR came up. He said the fastest German had gone in training was 10x400 @ 62-63
I haven't seen Drew Hunter run anything faster than 60s in training either apart from the very rare 150s or 60s he does for speed development. Literally every single session the TME guys are doing is either CV/Threshold or a tempo, maybe once a month they do something like 600s at 3k/5k pace but even then they usually "warm-up" with some threshold miles or k's.
Seems the philosophy is similar to Tinman, and quite the opposite from Salazar/Julian with their weekly session dedicated to speed (weekly is often a 9-day cycle in their programs but still).
Another coach, although probably lesser known here, who didn't use speed work was Grant Fisher's HS coach (even I forgot the name). He said that he did no speed work with Grant, and focused on his aerobic development. He ran a 4 min mile in HS off that.
The mile is 80% aerobic for elite males finishing in 3:50 and still 83% for females finishing in 4:15. The average LRC runner in 4:30-4:50 it's even more aerobic, easily 85%.
Working on the top-end speed and ability to finish the last 100m of the race as fast as possible is important in tactical races. But almost every runner could benefit from improving the mile PR due to getting aerobically fitter.
McSweyn's coach understands that a 3:30 with more focus on aerobic development is worth more than a 3:35 with a slightly better kick (which will never be great anyway in a slow-twitch monster like McSweyn is, even his 10k time is absurdly good he has a crazy range).
I was more interested in the link to Seb Coe's training.
Aussies remain in love with distance training, and possibly the Kiwis do as well.
You don't have to be fast to run sub-4 (Murray Halberg).
His 3:57.5 on cinder is probably 3:53-54 on tartan.
I question drawing conclusions about training from those whose success is based on unusual physical attributes for running.
If you think you can run back-to-back 56, like McSweyn did for his 1:52.3 on the way to 3:50+, go for it. He is quite tall and thin, yet noticeably athletic for his height and how thin, so McSweyn can get a long stride without a big effort, making it look easier than that is.
I doubt he is on PEDs, and used to be when someone was cruising at 56, they were on PEDs.
Wottle did run 1:44.3 in the 72 Oly trials, and he did win the 800m Oly, but if Winzenreid doesn't get injured before Oly trials, I think he wins. Also, in the Oly 1500m semi, Wottle finishes 4th in a kicker's race, so no finals.
When he is doing 12 sprints up a hill, I am bet he is at sub 60s effort levels. And technically he could be running 300s in 42s and not running a single lap under 60s:)
BlackCat13 wrote:
It says he didn't run under 60 sec in training for the gap in between when he raced in Doha (3:30.5 Sep 25th) and the 3:50 mile (Dec 29th). He never said they never do it.
Misleading headline
More specifically, from Oct 10 to Nov 10, with hill reps (speed) after that.
What else do you expect when rojo reads an article?
adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
When he is doing 12 sprints up a hill, I am bet he is at sub 60s effort levels.
The 12-second hill sprints have NOTHING in common with running very hard 400s.
These hill sprints per definition of Canova/Hudson/Magness etc. are done at all-out (or very close to) efforts with plenty of recovery. There is literally no gasping for air/vomiting/high lactate buildup during them.
Compare them with doing 400s in 60s or faster with short rest. These are incredibly anaerobic (unless you are Cheptegei), produce lots of lactate, cause runners to be gasping for air and probably vomit or at the very least dry heave if doing too many of them. They pound the legs super hard for long periods of time, which McSweyn doesn't like.
There was an interview not too long ago were McSweyn said he hates 30s hill reps, because they would build-up lactate in his legs and make them hurt a lot whereas Gregson could handle them much better.
DON'T FRY SLOW-TWITCH RUNNERS WITH TOO HARD INTERVALS! Salazar, McSweyn, Carlos Lopes, all aerobic monsters respond better to other stuff. Look up Carlos Lopes training vs the training of Mamede, Lopes didn't run 400s nearly as fast as Mamede and not below 60 yet both were outstanding runners over 1500-10k.
The assertion that he did run a single lap under 60 means almost nothing. Most sub 4 minute runners could say the same if they wanted to. There are many ways to skin a cat. I could train someone to run sub 4 by just doing 100 meter or 200 meter sprints, strides and hills, IF they had the requisite talent. I would also incorporate tempo runs and probably some steady state runs such as 5 miles at 5 minute pace, for example.
I meant that he did not run a single lap under 60 means almost nothing.
Jimmio wrote:
The assertion that he did run a single lap under 60 means almost nothing. Most sub 4 minute runners could say the same if they wanted to. There are many ways to skin a cat. I could train someone to run sub 4 by just doing 100 meter or 200 meter sprints, strides and hills, IF they had the requisite talent. I would also incorporate tempo runs and probably some steady state runs such as 5 miles at 5 minute pace, for example.
I'm not sure what you mean with your post.
Do you mean that him not running a single lap under 60 means that he just did not run a 400 under 60 but did plenty of other speed work, like 200s, 300s, etc? Because that is clearly stated in the interview, and also if you follow Stewy you know he doesn't like doing hard anaerobic sessions in training. His coach himself said he didn't do speed work, and that the vast majority on the training was focused on his aerobic development - threshold, CV, tempo runs, long runs, very high mileage, etc. So if you doubt that he is doing mostly aerobic training, you are wrong! Because it's actually true for Stewy.
If you mean, that different runners require different training - some prosper on speed, some on aerobic work - then yes, that's totally right. Put Donovan Brazier on the same mileage and training program as Stewy, and he would either
- get injured
- get extremely bored/mentally burned out
- not be able to break 3:40 in the 1500m anymore
- get slower
You can't train a cheetah like an antelope and expect great results from it. Brazier needs a lot of speed work, that's fun for him, that's what his muscle fibers / body composition is made for. Brazier is the exact same height as Stewy but weighs 11 (ELEVEN) LBS more! That's HUGE! Massive difference in muscle mass, speed and power. Additionally, he has lots of FT fibers. You wanna pound that body with the 100+ mpw McSweyn is doing and remove the speed work from his program? No way Brazier would be successful with what works so well for McSweyn and some others!
Yeah I guess I mean the latter but one thing I cannot know is whether this guy might occasionally do a very fast strideout, possibly instinctive fartlek, where he may be moving faster than 15mph for short bursts. Maybe not but who knows?
To run a 3:50 mile "only" has a requirement of running maxVO2 reps at 63-64 sec/ 400m
He isn't actually definite on whether he did or not if you read the article.
CoachB wrote:
A number of years ago, I was talking to Dave Smith about one of my athletes and the topic of German Fernandez's 3:55i WJR came up. He said the fastest German had gone in training was 10x400 @ 62-63
Similar story with junior athlete working with he was preparing for WXC trials which is in middle of track season here in Australia. Training for 8k and 1500m you would think would be very different long intervals, hills, threshold. 6 days after 8k race he runs 1:52 and a week later 3:51. He was 18 at the time.
coahc wrote:
CoachB wrote:
A number of years ago, I was talking to Dave Smith about one of my athletes and the topic of German Fernandez's 3:55i WJR came up. He said the fastest German had gone in training was 10x400 @ 62-63
Similar story with junior athlete working with he was preparing for WXC trials which is in middle of track season here in Australia. Training for 8k and 1500m you would think would be very different long intervals, hills, threshold. 6 days after 8k race he runs 1:52 and a week later 3:51. He was 18 at the time.
If you look at a lot of modern training for distance guys it has a lot of aerobic work (5k-MP runs, mileage) and speed work (strides, 10s hills,....) during the base phase/race phase for XC. What the OP is missing would be a the race pace/anaerobic capacity stuff (10x400 @1500m pace). For the distance guys it is sort of low value. Yeah you need it for those last seconds but you aren't going from a 4:10 go you 3:50 with that training. More like 3:55 to 3:50. I am a bit impressed that he did run a 1:52 though. What did he run in outdoor track where I assume he did do some faster work?