Why haven't there been more great 400h/800m combo runners?

Hurdles training sucks up a lot of time. So trying to train for the speed and technical ability to compete in the 400h and the endurance to run the 800 would be logistically very difficult. It can be done, though. In my state we had a kid named John Lewis who was #1 or 2 in the nation at 800, but also had 46.xx 400 speed, and 52.xx 400 hurdle speed in high school.

this combo works very well in high school. at the pro level, no way.

imo the basic talents to succeed in both are fairly similar. so when you take high school athletes with just 3 or 4 years of training, they can compete in both pretty effectively.

at a high level the training is so drastically different that you wouldn't be able to reach your peak in either event.

800m is a very hard race to run at a world class level, if not on PEDs (or wearing cheater spikes).

If running for the fastest possible time, the 1st 400m is very fast, and one is trained to hold on through the 600m.

At that point, it is all guts to run a great time.

400m has this same paradigm for 300m if running for the fastest time, then guts up the straightaway.

Alberto Juantorena was on PEDs, part of the Cuban program for athletes, so he made it look easier than it is. I question whether he could break 1:46 without PEDs.

The mile (or 1500m) is often contested as a quick 3 laps and then kick. One learns to run at a threshold for 3 laps, and training/racing is to improve that threshold.

The 800m is run without any such threshold, instead with depleting capacity the entire race. Not as quickly as with the 400m, but very quickly depleted, nonetheless.

Paradoxical wrote:

Hurdles training sucks up a lot of time. So trying to train for the speed and technical ability to compete in the 400h and the endurance to run the 800 would be logistically very difficult. It can be done, though. In my state we had a kid named John Lewis who was #1 or 2 in the nation at 800, but also had 46.xx 400 speed, and 52.xx 400 hurdle speed in high school.

We had this thread a couple years back

You will notice that guys tend to be slightly better at one event. The events are similar but the difference are enough that it will be hard to do peak performances in both.

How do you learn to handle a threshold pace? Either a runner is physically capable of running a given pace, or he's not. It's talent and fitness and nothing else.

Perhaps I am using threshold to mean something different than what has become common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP_NzZP_LK0

Landy v Bannister in the Miracle Mile.

Classic case: Landy grinds out sub-60 pace from the front, and Bannister holds on .

Bannister was faster, and it is mentioned in the video that he had kicked a 53+ final lap off of a slow pace.

He had run 1:50.7 in 1950.

In '52, 10 days before the Olympic final, ran a ​3⁄4 mile time trial in 2:52.9.

Having a semi-final added to the program undid his title hopes.

Beyond 40 seconds running events become more and more progressively aerobic. At 1:30 you are mostly operating on aerobic capacity. At the highest levels it favors that hybrid type runner.

otter wrote:

Beyond 40 seconds running events become more and more progressively aerobic. At 1:30 you are mostly operating on aerobic capacity. At the highest levels it favors that hybrid type runner.

Bingo. Around 90 seconds the aerobic/anaerobic contributions are around 50/50. So the energy system requirements are not even close.

We know 400mH athletes on average have slightly inferior 400m speed compared to elite 400m athletes. We know some low mileage 800m athletes have slightly inferior 400m speed compared to elite 400m athletes. The path to two events is usually different. Some low mileage 800m gals & guys with near elite 400 speed were obviously 400m specialists in their salad days. Often 400mH athletes were former 110mH (males) athletes or 100mH (females) athletes.

A couple of posters brought up human energy system to state why 400mH athletes & 800m athletes do not overlap. Even though the events require some different stresses to the body, that is not it.

Human energy system for 100m freestyle is nearly identical to human energy system for 400m dash. Human energy system for 200m freestyle is nearly identical to human energy system for 800m run.

One-hundred yard or 100 metre freestyle swimmers often do not train significantly different than 200 yard or 200 metre freestyle swimmers. 100m-200m double in Olympic &/or World Champion swimming is rare but we do see swimmers training for 200m freestyle and also earning medal, 4 x 100m relay. Teenage &/or college age swimmers do well as 200 yard freestyle swimmers and also successfully swim on team 400 yard freestyle relay. Often teenage club or school T&F 4 x 400m have both 400m specialists & 800m specialists.

Alberto Juantorena's name came up on this thread. Juantorena was not the only 800m gold medalist with world class 400m speed. John Woodruff, Mal Whitfied and Tom Courtney were all 800m Olympic gold medalists with world class 400m speed. Do not forget about Emmanuel K. Korir.

Success Peter Snell demonstrated as an 800m man no doubt lead to many 800m specialists to adopt higher mileage training. Higher mileage training for 800m athletes was relatively successful since higher mileage 800m training scared away many 400-800 athletes.

More 400m athletes could still achieve success as 400m athletes training as 400-800 hybrid athletes, but there is risk reward which must be considered. No doubt some 800m athletes are able to achieve success with lower mileage training as long as cross-training is added.

Blood1234 wrote:

The more I research, the more I realize how little overlap there is between athletes in the two events. It would seem as if the qualities of one event would compliment the other. Anybody have any insight on this?

Buddy, 400H runners can't even run fast 600s. You'd THINK they'd make decent 800 runners but it doesn't pan out.

There have been some very good athletes who have competed well in both events.

David Patrick of the USA ran 1:44 and 47 (and won both events, in successive years I believe, at the US championships), as did Harald Schmid of Germany

Brandon Johnson was a 48 second hurdler and later became a 1:43 800m guy.

Florida Boy wrote:

There have been some very good athletes who have competed well in both events.

David Patrick of the USA ran 1:44 and 47 (and won both events, in successive years I believe, at the US championships), as did Harald Schmid of Germany

Brandon Johnson was a 48 second hurdler and later became a 1:43 800m guy.

There could be a lot more success hybrid 400-800 athletes. Collegiate XC distance scare many potential 400-800 hybrid athletes. Many programs have Lydiard attitude toward 800m. I wonder if some 400m collegiate athletes sandbag 600m when asked to race said event. Many 400m athletes know a sub-82.5 600m may bring on an 800m conversation with mileage the 400m athlete may find overwhelming.

Florida Boy wrote:

There have been some very good athletes who have competed well in both events.

David Patrick of the USA ran 1:44 and 47 (and won both events, in successive years I believe, at the US championships), as did Harald Schmid of Germany

Harald Schmid had a victory over Ovett at 800m.

I wonder what Alberto Juantorena's potential at 400m hurdles was?