If it would be wrong elite runners would not run 180-220 km weekly.
If it would be wrong elite runners would not run 180-220 km weekly.
You reach genetically maximum, but to hold it, you have to keep running volume high and sufficient... impossible to reach 80, and than run 50 km per week only... :-))
I don't agree with you Renato in some of your statements here.There has been a lot of great runners working full-time and still ran up to the very best times at 10000/ marathon in the world top in history.So what you say ," The best way for coaching an amateur has nothing to do with the best way for coaching top professional athletes in the world ", doesn't correspond to the prevailing proven reality.
"High volume allows to recovery high intensity", also another false statement.High volume linked to high intensity INCREASE risk of injury and overdoing.
What I agree with you is that talent is the most crucial factor if a runner would reach world top.
I also agree modulation between intensity and recovery is the key for supercompensation, but not only in the way you suggests.
Always interesting dialog with you.
HiII Stomper wrote:
John H. wrote:
But that is the case that is 'wrong' with you Renato.You can't think out of the box!
There is no need for such phase as what you call 'fundamental period' to reach a runner's
potential limit. I don't talk about just world top international runners but also every given runner.If what you say was true, it would take 180-220 km per week ( if using your method with 'fundamental period' ) for any given runner, regardless of level, to reach individual potential limit at 10000m and marathon.There is no such existing imperative volume per week as you claim, even if that is the volume you use for your runners.
Shut up Jan!
Why should I shut up?I know more than Canova . He has to see my success with 13 winners of international races is just over 5 years of coaching online .He must learn.
My method os not magic but it sure looks like magic.
- Magic Winter coming - :)
Canefis wrote:
You reach genetically maximum, but to hold it, you have to keep running volume high and sufficient... impossible to reach 80, and than run 50 km per week only... :-))
You reach 80 with 0km a week. It's your natural VO2max
But with more training you keep increasing velocity at VO2max.
John, I repeat again : are you able to give some name of athletes IN TOP 30 IN THE WORLD who achieved their results with LESS than 180 km per week during the Fundamental Period ?
Are you able to give me the name of some athletes IN TOP 30 IN THE WORLD who don't use a periodization including (and starting) with the Fundamental Period, for you useless ?
Don't talk about fried air : coaching is something PRACTICAL, not THEORICAL, and we have to see HOW the best results have been achieved.
And about high volume and high intensity, what you say is completely wrong : statistically the percentage of injuries is very much higher with athletes using high intensity WITHOUT high volume, because the main reasons of injuries are in the CONCENTRATION of the intensity that needs more recovery for producing results without injuries.
We haver to look at the way for building a career. Everybody needs 7-10 years for building his "Aerobic House", and for doing this, during that period has to increase gradually the volume, year after year, till the normal volume used by all the best athletes in the World (150-170 km for specialists of 1500m, 170-200 for 5000/10000m, 180-240 for HM and Marathon runners).
Inside the volume, we have some improvement maintaining the same "internal load" during the Fundamental Period, and a further improvement during the Specific Period when athletes assemble the qualities they have in order to prepare the performance (in this case, looking at the "external load").
Internal load means the level of effort and doesn't depend on factors you can't control : for example, you can use a same level of effort running 10 km in 30' in bad weather conditions (cold, rain, wind) and in 29' in perfect conditions, these two performances are different if we look at the "external" result, but their stimulus on the body is the same.
External load means to use exactly the speed you want to prepare for the performance. If the goal is to run 10000m in 28', this means a speed of 2'48" per km, and this IS MATHEMATIC. Differently from what happens during the Fundamental Period, in this case, if for some reason isn't possible to run at the precise speed, we have to stop the session, because if we don't adapt the body and the mind to run at the speed of our target, we are not able to optimize the training carried out before.
We need to build the performance in precise way, without giving space to any casuality,
If you want to build a house, the first point is to know how much money you can spend, and if you are an athlete, the money is your talent. Some amateur has the talent for a house of one or two floors, Haile, Kenenisa and Cheptegei have talent for a skyscraper ; but, in any case, the first step is to buy the material for building the house. During the Fundamental Period, we buy the material, working for improving all the qualities (stength, general resistance, short speed, ability, mental concentration, rapidity). At the end of the Fundamental Period, we have to analyze how much material we have, and we have to change our training phylosophy : we have to work for assembling all the qualities in the correct way, in order to build THE PERFORMANCE.
This process continues every year, alternating periods for buying new material, and periods for using this material in order to build a new floor.
If you don't grow as volume during the period necessary for building your aerobic house, simply you don't buy new material, and are no more able to improve.
All the athletes who had a long career were athletes using high volume, and achieved great results because, inside and together high volume, step by step were able to raise the intensity.
Overall volume is a good predictor of success but some people take this to an extreme. The quality of those miles matters as well. Agree with Canova that more (easy) volume will help with recovery.
Thanks you
Sir Canova is really one honor can make one cuestion for you I start one month a go with long runs 2 hours easy some hills fast and I'm starting to make 1000m in the track around 2:55 per k I have a real target to run under 9 minutes all I can I this winter maybe under 8:30 please can you give me some directions for follow the progression with my training following your wisdom maybe I think miles or 2000m and tempo run etc.. I can train 100 or 120 kms by week sir Canova one tip from you is a real honor for me.
Yesune wrote:
Sir Canova is really one honor can make one cuestion for you I start one month a go with long runs 2 hours easy some hills fast and I'm starting to make 1000m in the track around 2:55 per k I have a real target to run under 9 minutes all I can I this winter maybe under 8:30 please can you give me some directions for follow the progression with my training following your wisdom maybe I think miles or 2000m and tempo run etc.. I can train 100 or 120 kms by week sir Canova one tip from you is a real honor for me.
Dude, there is no magic workout, learn and understand principle of endurance sport training.
John has the disease of three thousand trolls, why not you introduce yourself by your name?: Jan Stensson.
I would change the forum rules, from the IP you can see trolls and banner them.
Canefis wrote:
Dude, there is no magic workout, learn and understand principle of endurance sport training.
yes, and just to add anecdotal evidence that tempo runs are not useless i am looking back on the last weeks. running since 13 weeks nothing else than two hard tempos (short tempo at 5k race pace + 10s/km or a longer tempo at 5k race pace +20s/km) and one interval session plus cross training (bike). i shaved off one minute on my 5,2km loop.
might be interesting to see what happens if i replace the interval with a progression run with a short but all out-finish. of course regular strides after the tempo runs to build some leg speed. there was a quite good thread here (success with no intervals?). some guys have had great success with this.
Canefis wrote:
Yesune wrote:
Sir Canova is really one honor can make one cuestion for you I start one month a go with long runs 2 hours easy some hills fast and I'm starting to make 1000m in the track around 2:55 per k I have a real target to run under 9 minutes all I can I this winter maybe under 8:30 please can you give me some directions for follow the progression with my training following your wisdom maybe I think miles or 2000m and tempo run etc.. I can train 100 or 120 kms by week sir Canova one tip from you is a real honor for me.
Dude, there is no magic workout, learn and understand principle of endurance sport training.
Don’t let your coach hear about this what you just said.
He (Wizard, superior coach JS, Jan, Johnh ???? corona time or what ever handle he uses claims he has “magic”
He even uses Canova and Daniels trainingsmethod and claims he invented a “magic” method
Well.....I always laugh a little for myself when I see your comments Renato :) Always the same
stuck theory that it must to a fundamental period to reach individual top performance.Can't see out of the box and understand that even better methods than the phase methods is already here and will take over in the future.Arthur(Lydiard) wasn't stuck in his method without making it clear that the future would produce even better methods. So Arthur is the coach in history that I hold most in high esteem.
Further on I didn't write that the phase methods and the fundamental period is useless as you try to distort what I write.How could I with thousands and again thousands of really great performances in history with that way to train? What I 'm proposing is instead a method that is at least as good, and with only a minimal requirement for volume.
If you want to build a house the first thing is to know; What do I and my family need? What is enough to reach our needs and expectations?You don't have to build more floors, just refine the existing ones.Didn't you know Renato ? Recycling is in time and is in melody of future generations of runners, to teach the body to recycle energy more efficient for the energy process and become even faster over time. Cheers! :)
Dimitry wrote:
John has the disease of three thousand trolls, why not you introduce yourself by your name?: Jan Stensson.
I would change the forum rules, from the IP you can see trolls and banner them.
Yes.John is English for Jan. :)
John H is like Jan Häxmästare, John Wizard.
Canova was just lucky with the runners he trained but great champions like Kamworor and Kiprop wsnted to be coached using my magic method. ;)
I am thinking to change the name of my method from Dancan to Danjan if you don't admit I am right and you are wrong Renato.
- Magic November! - :)
do tell me wrote:
Canefis wrote:
Dude, there is no magic workout, learn and understand principle of endurance sport training.
Don’t let your coach hear about this what you just said.
He (Wizard, superior coach JS, Jan, Johnh ???? corona time or what ever handle he uses claims he has “magic”
He even uses Canova and Daniels trainingsmethod and claims he invented a “magic” method
Just to make it very clear! I don't use Canova*s training method! Only his basic idea that the specific long run has to inhold faster parts to be race adapted.
Sorry for confusion hehe I changed handle for posting on other thread.Cheers!
...... and again you didn't give any name of some athlete in top 30 in the world using low mileage (the only one was Bernard Lagat, who in any case continued to increase his mileage year after year when started to look at 5000m).
If you want to change the name of your magic DANCAN with DANJAN I'll be happy. My real goal is to learn from the athletes, and to teach how they can train, in order to help them to reach the best personal results. And, if they have talent, to reach top international level. For example, athletes that I coached won the following World Championships :
Christopher Koskei (3000m steeple in 1999, the only Gold for Kenya)
Paul Kosgei (HM in 2002 at his first attempt)
Saaeed Saif Shaheen (3000m steeple in 2003 and 2005, and WR in 2004)
Dorcus Inzikuru (the first edition of 3000m steeple in 2005)
Florence Kiplagat (cross in 2009 and HM in 2010, and 5 WR on the road)
Wilson Kiprop (HM in 2010)
Abel Kirui (Marathon in 2009 and 2011, and silver in Olympics)
Imane Merga (Cross in 2011)
Caleb Ndiku (3000m indoor in 2014)
Geoffrey Kirui (Marathon in 2017)
Irene Cheptai (Cross in 2017)
And Moses Mosop bettered the WR of 25000 and 30000m on track...
And Sondre Moen bettered the European Record of Marathon and of 25000m on track...
But of course, you are the Wizard dreaming that Kamworor and Asbel Kiprop wanted to train with you, who are the joke in all Kenya...
Good luck with your magic system, tell me when REALLY you can finally have some athlete able to stay in top 100 in the world !
Renato Canova wrote:
...... For example, athletes that I coached won the following World Championships :
Geoffrey Kirui (Marathon in 2017)
Wasn't Kirui coached by Dutch coach Piet de Peuter who followed Verheul's method of low mileage and interval training?
wisenheimer_at_work wrote:
Canefis wrote:
Dude, there is no magic workout, learn and understand principle of endurance sport training.
yes, and just to add anecdotal evidence that tempo runs are not useless i am looking back on the last weeks. running since 13 weeks nothing else than two hard tempos (short tempo at 5k race pace + 10s/km or a longer tempo at 5k race pace +20s/km) and one interval session plus cross training (bike). i shaved off one minute on my 5,2km loop.
might be interesting to see what happens if i replace the interval with a progression run with a short but all out-finish. of course regular strides after the tempo runs to build some leg speed. there was a quite good thread here (success with no intervals?). some guys have had great success with this.
hi wisenheimer,
i guess there are some FT guys which are aerobic weak and simply run the tempos too hard. The training effect is then quite limited. Better is to build up strength and aerobic capability with longer fast runs such as 45 to 60 min comfortably hard. afterwards add cautiosly tempo effort. but take care that the volume of hard runing can be "digested". a coach can guide. i cannot.
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