Precious Roy wrote:
If you think Woolhouse is a herd immunity proponent, you are making a big mistake.
Roy, why do you call yourself "precious"? Do you have an ego or something?
What's your winrate as a lawyer?
Precious Roy wrote:
If you think Woolhouse is a herd immunity proponent, you are making a big mistake.
Roy, why do you call yourself "precious"? Do you have an ego or something?
What's your winrate as a lawyer?
trollism wrote:
Sheeple #1 wrote:
This post sums up why we have this hysteria. People like this have decided that freaking the hell out about COVID is the virtuous and compassionate thing to do. There is no alternate answer science be damned. Anyone who disagrees with my view even if they are well intentioned is evil because I am virtuous.
Open your eyes and re-evaluate your position. The 3.5% death rate CNN told you was a fabrication to drive hysteria. We have now gathered enough info to know that the IFR is nowhere near that. This virus has "killed" .054% of the US population over a time in which .4% would die in a normal year. This is not the black death.
It's not the opinion that's causing the problem.
It's the hundreds of posts per day under various handles on multiple threads that's the problem.
People like Giles Corey/Unkle and Hardloper need to be shown the door, along with their countless alternative alter-egos.
No, they do not need to be shown the door.
Go create your own website.
You wrote that "its not the opinion thats causing the problem". Why cant you honor what you say?
Not buying this fearmongering anymore! wrote:
Good stuff there Allen53! ? Your research skills are impressive and you post the most fascinating information on this subject.
I copy a lot of the links you post and show it to my Leftist acquaintances at the gym - it drives them crazy that they just give up on thier argument and walk away devastated. Lol.
You print out COVID-19 literature to show people at the gym and are surprised that they walk away from you?
Across the pond wrote:
When will you wrap your head around the challenges of controlling a large population?
NZ is on a freaking island.
Just like everything else a small company, organization, country, state (look at small states in the US) can be easily managed on every level.
Remove CA, NY, IL, FL, TX, etc. and it's a different story.
Exactly! If you just remove all the dead people, this virus hasn't killed anyone! Not one single person!
Precious Roy wrote:
If you think Woolhouse is a herd immunity proponent, you are making a big mistake. Woolhouse wants a massive expansion of testing to manage COVID outbreaks instead of using lockdowns. Woolhouse was on the side of locking down the UK and shot down the notion of herd immunity back when Boris was resisting doing anything to stop the outbreak. His point now is that we should be able to manage further outbreaks with a massive testing program and by isolating vulnerable populations instead of resorting to a lockdown. He is generally right except that he is relying on some very limited science on outbreaks in schools and transmission between adults and children. But Woolhouse's position on COVID is that it will be around for a long time and is going to be dangerous. He is not a herd immunity guy or a T cell conspiracy theorist who thinks that COVID will magically disappear by July, wait, by October.
Not a "conspiracy", but FACTS: Death rates are near baseline (very low), and the virus appears to be becoming less virulent (attenuation):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT9nfh8ZrFQThis is the natural course of all pulmonary pathogens.
arunnerinwa wrote:
The US ranks below Belgium, Spain, the UK, Italy and Sweden for deaths per capita. Other European countries aren't far behind. In terms of countries that can be depended on to honestly report their numbers (Europe, Aus/NZ, SK and Japan, and Canada) the US is very much in family. I don't believe anything coming out of China, Russia or the developing world in terms of true case numbers or death numbers. China's misinformation alone makes your statement not useful.
Of 190-odd countries in the world the US is amongst the 10 worst for death rates. It is right up there with Brazil - no surprises there - with 54 deaths per 100k. Countries that have managed the crisis have death rates closer to 0.45 (like NZ). The US is the wealthiest country in the world, with more scientific expertise than any other, and yet has nearly 25% of the Covid deaths, with only 4% of the world's population. Its figures for infections and deaths are not determined by its population size but by how it has responded to the crisis. It has failed.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Countries that have managed the crisis have death rates closer to 0.45 (like NZ).
You are comparing apples to oranges, and you know it.
New Zealand is a small country. You know this.
New Zealand does not have an economic hub on an international scale like Wall Street in New York. You know this.
New Zealand does not have a tech hub on an international scale like Silicon Valley in California. You know this.
You are doing this on purpose.
huh what wrote:
I'm pushing 40. I've lost all four grandparents. They were old. It wasn't too sad. It's natural to die when you've become old and frail.
I also lost a close friend at 19 in Afghanistan and known several other young people who died in accidents. Those are tragic. Lives cut short.
All lives that are ended by disease are cut short - whatever the age.
You say it wasn't too sad that you've lost all 4 grandparents. So the value of another's life is what it means to you - not to the person themselves. Your's may not be as important as you think it is, either - were it to be "cut short".
facts and reason wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Countries that have managed the crisis have death rates closer to 0.45 (like NZ).
You are comparing apples to oranges, and you know it.
New Zealand is a small country. You know this.
New Zealand does not have an economic hub on an international scale like Wall Street in New York. You know this.
New Zealand does not have a tech hub on an international scale like Silicon Valley in California. You know this.
You are doing this on purpose.
The only "apples and oranges" comparison is that NZ has an effective government; the US doesn't - which is why it is leading the world with Covid deaths.
Armstronglivs wrote:
arunnerinwa wrote:
The US ranks below Belgium, Spain, the UK, Italy and Sweden for deaths per capita. Other European countries aren't far behind. In terms of countries that can be depended on to honestly report their numbers (Europe, Aus/NZ, SK and Japan, and Canada) the US is very much in family. I don't believe anything coming out of China, Russia or the developing world in terms of true case numbers or death numbers. China's misinformation alone makes your statement not useful.
Of 190-odd countries in the world the US is amongst the 10 worst for death rates. It is right up there with Brazil - no surprises there - with 54 deaths per 100k. Countries that have managed the crisis have death rates closer to 0.45 (like NZ). The US is the wealthiest country in the world, with more scientific expertise than any other, and yet has nearly 25% of the Covid deaths, with only 4% of the world's population. Its figures for infections and deaths are not determined by its population size but by how it has responded to the crisis. It has failed.
New Zeland is an island hundreds of miles from Australia and thousands from the rest of the world with a population the size of Colorado. Comparing it to America with multiple population centers in the millions is absurd.
Also you seem to fail to understand the lack of resources and/or corruption in many countries. Do you really think population-dense India has a tenth of the COVID deaths of the US by pop? These contries aren't able to test every person dieing for COVID much less pay every health care provided who writes COVID on the death certificate an extra $13K. Forget about paying an extra $39K if you stick the person on a ventilator, they can't afford ventilators. Yes in the US we are financially incentivizing inflation of COVID deaths which makes the idea that they are undercounted ridiculous. As someone mentioned, the only worthwhile data comes from Europe, US/Can, Oceania, and a couple Asian countries. In the US you have to be careful with the New York and New England states since they cooked the books in a couple of instances.
In this thread:
Countries which prove my priors are PERFECT examples of proper governance.
Countries which don't are FLAWED analogies with NON-COMPARABLE population numbers, demographics, etc.
Germany is a nice large country that handled the pandemic pretty well well. The US could have been them.
I find it interesting that Kanzerlin Merkel has a hard-science PhD. Certainly helps with understanding basic math and biology concepts that people on this board seem to struggle with.
Well, back to the pay-for-covid-diagnosis conspiracy theories, people raving about lockdowns causing financial ruin to make Trump look bad, etc. Throw in some new T-cell theories people saw on ZeroHedge and we are good to go!
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
Also you seem to fail to understand the lack of resources and/or corruption in many countries. Do you really think population-dense India has a tenth of the COVID deaths of the US by pop? These contries aren't able to test every person dieing for COVID much less pay every health care provided who writes COVID on the death certificate an extra $13K. Forget about paying an extra $39K if you stick the person on a ventilator, they can't afford ventilators. Yes in the US we are financially incentivizing inflation of COVID deaths which makes the idea that they are undercounted ridiculous. As someone mentioned, the only worthwhile data comes from Europe, US/Can, Oceania, and a couple Asian countries. In the US you have to be careful with the New York and New England states since they cooked the books in a couple of instances.
So let me get this straight.
All first world countries that are showing more deaths than you want are COOKING THE BOOKS.
All third world countries that are showing less deaths than make you look correct are LACKING RESOURCES and CORRUPT.
Pray tell, are there any countries reporting exactly the correct amount of deaths? Let me guess, Sweden?
Armstronglivs wrote:
All lives that are ended by disease are cut short - whatever the age.
That's BS. How many lives are artificially prolonged with statins, beta blockers, insulin, etc.? Most of those dying of COVID are frail individuals whose lives have been artificially extended via medical technology. In a natural setting these individuals would have succumbed much sooner. And a virus (at least one that wasn't engineered in a lab) is a natural thing. Dying from a virus is part of the natural process. You (and those socialist like you pining for unlimited free medical care for all) are seeking immortality.
"This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Armstronglivs wrote:
facts and reason wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges, and you know it.
New Zealand is a small country. You know this.
New Zealand does not have an economic hub on an international scale like Wall Street in New York. You know this.
New Zealand does not have a tech hub on an international scale like Silicon Valley in California. You know this.
You are doing this on purpose.
The only "apples and oranges" comparison is that NZ has an effective government; the US doesn't - which is why it is leading the world with Covid deaths.
New Zealand has the SECOND WORST death rate in Oceania, only ahead of Australia with it's police-state crackdowns.
joedirt wrote:
That's BS. How many lives are artificially prolonged with statins, beta blockers, insulin, etc.? Most of those dying of COVID are frail individuals whose lives have been artificially extended via medical technology. In a natural setting these individuals would have succumbed much sooner. And a virus (at least one that wasn't engineered in a lab) is a natural thing. Dying from a virus is part of the natural process. You (and those socialist like you pining for unlimited free medical care for all) are seeking immortality.
"This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Death is good, actually, the wise man said.
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-coronavirus-response-separating-fact-from-fiction/a-53053822Harambe wrote:
Germany is a nice large country that handled the pandemic pretty well well. The US could have been them.
"The RKI called for an end to this practice on the grounds that Germany could risk running out of tests. Therefore, asymptomatic people are currently not being recommended for testing."
Germany may have a lower death rate because if they were less aggressive in testing all the elderly without symptoms in nursing homes.
Sheeple #1 wrote:
Precious Roy wrote:
If you think Woolhouse is a herd immunity proponent, you are making a big mistake. Woolhouse wants a massive expansion of testing to manage COVID outbreaks instead of using lockdowns. Woolhouse was on the side of locking down the UK and shot down the notion of herd immunity back when Boris was resisting doing anything to stop the outbreak. His point now is that we should be able to manage further outbreaks with a massive testing program and by isolating vulnerable populations instead of resorting to a lockdown. He is generally right except that he is relying on some very limited science on outbreaks in schools and transmission between adults and children. But Woolhouse's position on COVID is that it will be around for a long time and is going to be dangerous. He is not a herd immunity guy or a T cell conspiracy theorist who thinks that COVID will magically disappear by July, wait, by October.
T-cells a conspiracy theory? Just because you're a lawyer with a degree in music and had never heard of a T-cell before 2 weeks ago does not make them a conspiracy theory. This sound science and has been for long before COVID was a thing. Those of us who have STEM degrees have been cringing as the media has been creating this hysteria over antibodies disappearing quickly. You have commentators who have no technical knowledge or background trying to educate a similarly science ignorant public.
Now you are at the point of projecting ridiculous conspiracy theories on all who disagree. No one smart ever said Covid would just disappear. But had we gone the herd immunity route COVID would no longer be impacting our daily lives? If you read Woolhouse's comments he said he was initially for the lockdown as we did not have a better plan at the time but now thinks it is doing far more harm then good. He has updated his opinion on the right course as new evidence and data becomes available. That is something you should try. Holding fast to your original belief in spite of all new evidence is 100% unscientific.
You have seen the right wing clowns claiming that Coronavirus will be over by October. They said that the virus would disappear by October. It has been documented.
If you cared about science, you would know that the evidence is clear that antibodies do not last much longer than 4-5 months. That is entirely consistent with the duration of antibodies for pre-COVID 19 corona viruses. T-cell immunity is an entirely different ball game. T-cells do not prevent infection. T-cell immunity only comes into play once someone has been infected and the virus is multiplying. T-cells can only help fight the virus and minimize symptoms. T-cell immunity for SARS was observed to last up to 12 years. We do not know how long T-cell immunity lasts for COVID 19. But most importantly, we do not know how effective T-cell immunity is for COVID 19. In other diseases, like Dengue fever, the second exposure results in a worse bout of the disease. We do not know how well T-cell immunity will protect people from a second exposure to coronavirus. Allowing hundreds of thousands to die and get possibly permanent health problems to chase T-cell immunity without any evidence of whether it will last or be effective is the epitome of irresponsible public health policy.
So, come back here when you want to talk science instead of cheap insults, Mr. STEM.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/coronavirus-t-cells-immunity-scott-atlasfacts and reason wrote:
Germany may have a lower death rate because if they were less aggressive in testing all the elderly without symptoms in nursing homes.
Excess death figures refute what I think you're trying to say.
"We just test so much!!!111 That's why things look so bad!!111"
Give me a break, Trump tried that on national TV already.
Precious Roy wrote:
Sheeple #1 wrote:
T-cells a conspiracy theory? Just because you're a lawyer with a degree in music and had never heard of a T-cell before 2 weeks ago does not make them a conspiracy theory. This sound science and has been for long before COVID was a thing. Those of us who have STEM degrees have been cringing as the media has been creating this hysteria over antibodies disappearing quickly. You have commentators who have no technical knowledge or background trying to educate a similarly science ignorant public.
Now you are at the point of projecting ridiculous conspiracy theories on all who disagree. No one smart ever said Covid would just disappear. But had we gone the herd immunity route COVID would no longer be impacting our daily lives? If you read Woolhouse's comments he said he was initially for the lockdown as we did not have a better plan at the time but now thinks it is doing far more harm then good. He has updated his opinion on the right course as new evidence and data becomes available. That is something you should try. Holding fast to your original belief in spite of all new evidence is 100% unscientific.
You have seen the right wing clowns claiming that Coronavirus will be over by October. They said that the virus would disappear by October. It has been documented.
If you cared about science, you would know that the evidence is clear that antibodies do not last much longer than 4-5 months. That is entirely consistent with the duration of antibodies for pre-COVID 19 corona viruses. T-cell immunity is an entirely different ball game. T-cells do not prevent infection. T-cell immunity only comes into play once someone has been infected and the virus is multiplying. T-cells can only help fight the virus and minimize symptoms. T-cell immunity for SARS was observed to last up to 12 years. We do not know how long T-cell immunity lasts for COVID 19. But most importantly, we do not know how effective T-cell immunity is for COVID 19. In other diseases, like Dengue fever, the second exposure results in a worse bout of the disease. We do not know how well T-cell immunity will protect people from a second exposure to coronavirus. Allowing hundreds of thousands to die and get possibly permanent health problems to chase T-cell immunity without any evidence of whether it will last or be effective is the epitome of irresponsible public health policy.
So, come back here when you want to talk science instead of cheap insults, Mr. STEM.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/coronavirus-t-cells-immunity-scott-atlas
Ummm, you're the one that devolved into cheap insults... "right wing clowns".
It's as though you're oblivious to yourself.
Harambe wrote:
In this thread:
Countries which prove my priors are PERFECT examples of proper governance.
Countries which don't are FLAWED analogies with NON-COMPARABLE population numbers, demographics, etc.
Germany is a nice large country that handled the pandemic pretty well well. The US could have been them.
I find it interesting that Kanzerlin Merkel has a hard-science PhD. Certainly helps with understanding basic math and biology concepts that people on this board seem to struggle with.
Well, back to the pay-for-covid-diagnosis conspiracy theories, people raving about lockdowns causing financial ruin to make Trump look bad, etc. Throw in some new T-cell theories people saw on ZeroHedge and we are good to go!
As if on cue here comes Harambe to put words in my mouth. All developed countries that have more deaths than an arbitrary number I've selected are cooking the books, yes those were my exact words. I have said nothing of the sort. I think it is perfectly reasonable to understand that different places and countries and places do record COVID deaths differently this is factual.
I think it is very different to suggest New York and a couple of other states cooked their books when this absolutely did happen. New York's government as did others on the east coast went back in and added thousands of deaths that they had no evidence were related to COVID to their COVID death counts weeks after the individuals were deceased. This along with other actions that were taken are absolutely reasons to say their deaths per population which are massive global outliers are highly suspect.
I can look at places like Belgium and Sweden and say well one is in the 800's per mil the other is mid 500's. I can buy that difference being real based on demographics, how early they were hit, how well they protected the elderly, etc. Those new England states over 1200 per million are huge outliers with New York and Jersy over 1600. That sticks out like a sore thumb in the global data.
We know New York cooked the nursing home death count by changing the methodology. New York won't release the number of nursing home residents that died at hospitals because it would show the catastrophe created by the policies that put COVID patients in places to infect the most vulnerable of the population. I get people make mistakes in times of crisis. But this is a cover-up that is distorting the facts of the situation.