(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 6/7/20

Get out of this thread with that bullsh!t

My bad, dudes. I'm Mexican and the neighborhood was actually pretty fine. But I forget that you all didn't know I was a Mexican

Still a bit odd. Back to running though.

Does anyone else have very sore ankles when they get up in the morning? I have been finding for the last few months they when I get up my ankles are extremely sore but after about 5-10 minutes feel totally normal and I am completely pain free by the time I am out the door running. I see a few old threads about this with people commiserating. Wondering if anyone here suffers from the same affliction?

I don't wake up with sore ankles, but sometimes my knees feel a bit sore after a run. But I chalk that up to being flat footed and fat. Do you have any biomechanical oddities?

runrincerepeat wrote:

Rucker- I guess I meant more not swim shape but not look like a total joke! The swim is short in relation to the bike and run. So ... maybe I can doggie paddle it.

In that case, no reason you can't learn the basics that quick and look like you have an idea what to do in the water! Your lifting background will be helpful relative to a typical runner. As an anecdote:

There was a several month period where I was training up for an Army event as well as a big triathlon, and my schedule was pretty heinous for training..wake up at 430, get in an hour session of bike or run, then train for the Army stuff (some classroom but then a lot of rucking and crossfit type stuff) from 6-8, then go to class and work from 8-4 or 5, then get in another 1.5-2h of triathlon training, study, then sleep around 11-12pm. My upper body was too destroyed from Crossfit and lifting stuff to do any swimming of value, so I decided my new plan was to swim 2x/week for 30-45min at most (instead of 4-5x60-90min sessions), and build lats of steel on the pullup bar.

The swim speed deteriorated, but not as much as expected...and I definitely wasn't tired coming out of the water. Maybe try that?

Thanks for the advice. If I decide to do it at least 400 meters isn’t THAT far. I do a lot of upright and bent rows so that should help.

was in the army myself. Back in the early 2000s 2000-2005. Saw they changed the APFT to like 10 events

As I’ve aged, everything hurts in the morning a little More than it used to

Plantar fasciitis in particular is notorious for being worst first thing in the morning and then moderating as you move around.

I suspect all of it ties back into right calves that loosen up as you proceed through your morning - PF certainly does.

Your feet tend to point down at night and that shortens up your calf/achilles over night. You wake up and hop out of bed and things hurt because they don’t have their normal range of motion.

Short term, you can work you me ankle range of motion when you wake up before you get out of bed. Longer term, if it becomes a real issue, you can wear a night splint and do regular calf and ankle stretching and mobility work.

It might be worth trying some of that now even if it is not too bad because it can lead to other issues - trust me on that one.

I used to always wake up with sore ankles/feet and then after about ten minutes I’d be fine. Friend mentioned it was my hardwood floors and I should get some house shoes. Grabbed some Oofos and haven’t had an issue since.

I have started incorporating both types of flexion of the ankle 1-2x per week in some exercises and it has helped a lot. Every time I have had a minor PF flare up some dorsiflexion exercises have helped me keep running during, but if you don't also do calf strengthening work it can go the other direction and give you some calf pain, so it's important to do it all.

Last speed workout before my 1M TT. Still not super sure where my speed fitness is at. All these paces feel so fast to me at this age that it's hard to imagine holding them for 1-2M but I did

3x500/200/200/200 with equal jogs between the reps (so 500 jog after the 500, 200 jogs after the 200) and then 1200 jog between the sets. Was at something like 1:30 average for the 500, 33ish average for the 200s. Probably going to go out at like 73 and just hope I can hold it. Who knows. Being old is weird.

Similar experience here. Dorsiflexion exercises and 3x10 single leg calf raises for each leg on a step once per day. Dorsiflexion exercises when I remember to do them.

Question for all - I'm in a base training period pretty indefinitely until races come back. It's also hard with my job to actually structure a progression of workouts across a cycle, so I typically just get in as much running as I can and run hard rarely (occasionally I'll do a progression/fast finish run). I'm doing my best to incorporate hill sprints, just 4-8x12-20sec (walking back down the hill for recovery). Given I only do easy miles outside of that, how frequently can I do the hill sprints? I know Rono reportedly did daily hills, Lydiard prescribed hill workouts 3x/week, etc.

rucker wrote:

Similar experience here. Dorsiflexion exercises and 3x10 single leg calf raises for each leg on a step once per day. Dorsiflexion exercises when I remember to do them.

Question for all - I'm in a base training period pretty indefinitely until races come back. It's also hard with my job to actually structure a progression of workouts across a cycle, so I typically just get in as much running as I can and run hard rarely (occasionally I'll do a progression/fast finish run). I'm doing my best to incorporate hill sprints, just 4-8x12-20sec (walking back down the hill for recovery). Given I only do easy miles outside of that, how frequently can I do the hill sprints? I know Rono reportedly did daily hills, Lydiard prescribed hill workouts 3x/week, etc.

Honestly, I think you could do that 4-5x a week given how short the reps are.

You aren't doing any tempos, longer intervals, m-paced runs in your base phase?

I would probably do them twice a week. If I was feeling beat-up maybe once. I am not sure I would see a lot of value in doing them more than that. Presumably you are just trying to stay in touch with some semblance of speed.

Reverse question for you guys. After this 5k TT I have 5 weeks until I kick off a HM cycle. I am struggling with what to do with it.

I see 3 options:

1) Keep doing the same LT/Aerobic focused work I have been doing the last 4-5 weeks. This is ultimately going to look a lot like a HM plan so a bit worried about getting stale.

2) Throw in some faster stuff and see if I can score a 5k PR and/or give a 10k another shot depending on how this weekend goes.

3) A bit crazier... go out and run a marathon TT in 3 weeks and try to at least get a time that I can be quasi-proud of on the board (2:59:59) after my blow-up last February. I clearly haven't been doing the training for it but I have to think I can string together 26 6:50 miles right now given current fitness. I would then take 2 down weeks before the HM cycle.

What would you guys do... anything I am not thinking of?

Whichever one excites you more. I did a marathon TT a couple months ago and was trying to figure out what to do, thinking we were a long way off from real races. I thought 5K sounded fun. Just going with whatever seems like the most fun at the time, albeit never getting too far away from 10K-marathon training (e.g. maintaining the "long" long run, some longer tempos (4-6 miles) and some 10 mile M-pace runs, etc.).

birdbeard wrote:

Honestly, I think you could do that 4-5x a week given how short the reps are.

You aren't doing any tempos, longer intervals, m-paced runs in your base phase?

Appreciate the inputs. I haven't been on a structured plan in years with running, I was super injury prone for a long time. I got to 40-50mpw for a bit, then had a year break from any significant running where all I did was jog 20-30mpw and lift weights a ton. I've been back to actually running since last July. My job/life balance is stupidly irregular a lot of the time, so it's frustrating to even try to plan out a training cycle. As a result, I just try to accumulate miles, do the odd progression run, and run a lot of hilly routes and now hill sprints too. My intention is to get to a point where I'm sustaining 70mpw on average with strides and hills, see what that gets me in races, and then evaluate if the juice is worth the squeeze for me on a real cycle.

FWIW, when I ran 1:21 for a half back in March, I had probably run maybe 4 or 5 actual workouts this year, and only one in the previous 6wks. Everything else was just easy mileage at 7:30-8:30/mi for 30-50mpw. Not the best way to train for certain but I feel like I've got a lot of low hanging fruit with volume before I introduce intensity.

rucker wrote:

Similar experience here. Dorsiflexion exercises and 3x10 single leg calf raises for each leg on a step once per day. Dorsiflexion exercises when I remember to do them.

Question for all - I'm in a base training period pretty indefinitely until races come back. It's also hard with my job to actually structure a progression of workouts across a cycle, so I typically just get in as much running as I can and run hard rarely (occasionally I'll do a progression/fast finish run). I'm doing my best to incorporate hill sprints, just 4-8x12-20sec (walking back down the hill for recovery). Given I only do easy miles outside of that, how frequently can I do the hill sprints? I know Rono reportedly did daily hills, Lydiard prescribed hill workouts 3x/week, etc.

I would say you could do those 2 - 3 times a week. However I could vary it a touch with one day being 4 x 12 sec at all out, one day with 8 - 20 at a strong, controlled effort, and 4 - 6 x 12 - 15 that focuses more on form than speed.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Sadly no pacer. I don't really have a lot of friends who run. Moreover, finding someone to run 5:30 miles at 4AM on a Saturday morning isn't too easy.

I used to live in D.C., for about 10 months, I would have gladly joined you for such an adventure! Oh well, I'm sure I'll see you at a race sometime in the future!

birdbeard wrote:

Found some Fuel Cell 5280s for relatively cheap ( $110) and used them for a speed workout today. They are pretty fantastic. Probably questionable as to whether they would be better than the VF for 5000 (my guess is no) and I think the VF would be a lot better at 10,000, but the reviews that say you can't run anything more than a mile in them due to the aggressive nature are dead wrong.

Those of us that ran XC in spikes and aggressive flats have always sort of known you can run a quick 5000 in a shoe like that, and I don't always trust reviewers because it doesn't seem like they did run in aggressive shoes for races growing up, but the 5280 is basically like a cushy XC spike without the spikes. I really like them. I may well wear them for 5Ks.

I would love to try those 5280s out!!!

No way I would ever do a 5k in VFs. Flats all the way!!!

cocoon wrote:

Rhodium Nights wrote:

cocoon: I am amazed at the amount of track sessions you do. Four days in a row!! Very impressive and it will definitely pay off! Has that always been your preferred method of training?

?

Just been training this way for the last 3 weeks. Picked up a book called 'Easy Interval Method' based on the advertisement from the author on this message forum. I was looking at ways to get away from my marathon shuffle, so was intrigued with the method. Doing all the repeats on the road after programming the GPS watch. The repeats are never all-out: 200m @ ~3K pace, 400m @ ~ 10K pace, 1000m @ ~ HM/M pace. It is manageable right now, but I will be making a few changes to add in some 'top-end speed' sessions in the next month or so.

I see!! Yep, definitely don't want to kill yourself on every repeat! Sounds great! :)