Whoa. Police murder victim George Floyd tested positive for Coronavirus (not troll)

Excited delirium is not a real medical condition. AMA does not recognize it. It is a term that has been used by law enforcement as a vague catch-all term for various recognized mania/delirium that are tied to mental health issues and drug use. The biggest problem with the term is that it creates a very blurry line between what is just resisting arrest because a suspect is upset and a suspect losing control because he is under the influence of drugs or has a mental health issue. Police like to use excited delirium as an excuse for escalating force and skipping over efforts to deescalate. It fits perfectly within the classic causes of police brutality. Cops feel disrespected when a suspect resists and use force to punish. Cops also ascribe to the belief that they have to err on the side of excessive force or else they will get hurt or killed on the job. That is what happened to Floyd.

Floyd was restrained. He resisted getting into the police cruiser. When they pulled him out, he fell to the ground. He was upset, but he was not fighting or trying to get away. He just didn't want to get into the police cruiser. The excited delirium "diagnosis" includes things like superhuman strength, inability to communicate, bizarre behavior, high pain tolerance. Floyd told the officers that he was claustrophobic and did not want to get into the vehicle. Prior to that, he was mostly calm and collected and was politely asking police why he was being arrested.

When he was on the ground, he stopped resisting. He was clearly communicating that he could not breath and asked officers to let him up. He even agreed to be put in the police car. To the extent he exhibited excited delirium earlier when they tried to put him in the police vehicle, that behavior had completely subsided. Chauvin just used excited delirium as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on Floyd. Cops who abuse their power are very smart. They know exactly what to say on a police report to justify their abuse.

Completely agree.

Use of force is the issue here. There is nothing to prevent officers using maximum force 100% of the time and some of them choose to do so. Some enjoy doing so and look for excuses to escalate situations rather than de-escalate. Punching citizens who have submitted to arrest in order to elicit a violent response.

Some officers take their frustration or aggression out on suspects. Give them a bit of pre-court 'justice'. That's wrong and should be punished.

Again, it's not about racism at all. The main problem are the drugs. Floyd was strong, but he was a "gentle giant", you could even see in the 6 minutes he was dying how nice he was as person (never insulting anyone, pleading/begging for his life, being honest). Due to COVID, he lost everything - his job at the night club that paid him in cash, he was unable to send money to his daughter. He couldn't find a job due to his criminal record (7+ years in prison overall). He was desperate and got caught up in drugs and alcohol.

Had he been not on drugs, he would have never resisted the police. He wasn't himself and not able to think during the arrest. He probably had backlash to his 7 years in prison, the worst time of his life. He was afraid to get there again, and put up a lot of resistance despite being handcuffed.

The police had no clue what to do. EMT was called before the restraint, due to bleeding mouth/lips. Floyd might have been punched or maced in the car, the autopsy listed severe injuries to the left side of his face. It's probably also the reason why Chauvin tried so hard to keep that side of the face down, so no one can see the mess they created in the car struggle. You can even hear Floyd talk in one of the videos "my face is gone" (which was originally mistranslated as faith).

Never wondered why the police never showed body cam footage from what happened in the car? Because it was not nice. They already used force on him/his face trying to get him in but it was still not enough. If that's the reason Chauvin made sure his left side of the face stuck to the ground and also the reason he kept the knee on after he was out-cold I agree that 2nd murder is possible.

It still comes back to the question of why did they use so much force? If the excessive force was used in the car and they beat his face, then still why?

This is where a lot of people, I'd say myself included, feel it is partly because of the victims race.

There is at least a subconscious, definitely an institutional (taught at police academy), and potentially (but unlikely) conscious racism on the part of the arresting officers. Where they feel "we need to use lots of force with this guy or he will get the better of us and want to harm us".

Rather than approach the suspect as a human being and take the time to talk him around, they feel there is no point/the suspect is not worth it. So instead they choose to use maximum force to beat the suspect into submission.

And the communities see this approach constantly. That's where the questions around race come from.

It is their job to get him in and bring him to the police station. He did not allow them to do that by resisting. Floyd never wanted to harm anyone, he was just high and drunk and afraid of getting to prison again. That's often when it escalates. Something happened in the car that made him bleed out of his mouth (I assume he got hit in order to stop him resisting and get him in) and they decided to call the EMT and keep him restrained until EMT arrives. Chauvin did not believe him when he said he can't breathe, and didn't want to give in to the bystanders only making things worse.

You are posing the question - did they punch him and not believe him because he was black, or because he was a big guy resisting arrest? We can't answer that. Maybe they would have used the exact same procedure on a White guy. But what we do know is that police completely failed in assessing the situation, Floyd's status (mental AND physical), used excessive force inside the car and outside (and also right from the beginning, where Kueng was pulling a gun on Floyd while he was in his own car and put handcuffs on after) and severely contributed to his death.

I do think Chauvin is at best average IQ, probably low IQ (as are most police officers) and was working like a machine doing what he was trained and read in the books (neck restraint taught by Israeli police/military, keeping target immobilized until EMT arrives), and further incinerated by the crowd telling him he is about to kill someone (I know what I'm doing, don't tell me what to do!).

Racism could be a factor, I don't think it is, but regardless NO TEAM OF POLICE OFFICERS SHOULD EVER REACT LIKE THAT IN THIS SITUATION, no matter who the subject is. If it's not racism-based and they would have done exactly the same to a white 6'6" 230 lbs guy resisting arrest, it is STILL BAD/UNACCEPTABLE. The question is - how can we make police officer a more valued job and get better people for it AND afford better training? By putting more tax money into the police, allowing for longer training and higher salaries. Higher taxes would be needed for that.

I disagree that better training requires more taxes.

All the time spent doing target practice or ridiculous exercises like this:

https://youtu.be/jJkHiWnS5yk

...or sending officers to Israel to learn special forces combat techniques, could instead be used to train officers in de-escalation and actually recognising the best course of action.

They even train officers in target practice by shooting at unarmed paper cutouts.

Violent policing is a choice. It's something that is normalised in American society by TV and Hollywood. People expect officers to shout, pull out guns, beat suspects and shoot people.

That behaviour is not just tolerated, but victims of abusive behaviour by police are blamed by the public, and having a criminal history will excuse in most peoples minds any violence or harm that comes to a victim at the hands of the police. However slight (i.e. having taken drugs or being drunk or shoplifted 5 years ago).

Like I said, it's the Sherrif mentality. The Wild West. Gun down the outlaws in the street and shout 'Yee Haw'.

Unfortunately criminals lie. He was lying about being claustrophobic (he just got out of the driver's seat of a car where he had less space than he would have had in the back of a police cruiser). He didn't disclose what drugs he had taken (mainly Fentanyl, but also meth, weed and morphine), which may have saved his life when the ambulance arrived (had he disclosed that he had taken fentanyl, they would have given him NARCAN). He refused to get in the car and had resisted arrest for over five minutes (and he probably lied multiple times during that). So though he was claiming he couldn't breathe, he had already made multiple efforts to resist arrest and he had already lied multiple times to the police.

I lived in some tough neighborhoods and have seen multiple people get arrested. They pretty much all claim to be innocent. One time on a domestic arrest at 2AM outside of my apartment, the cops were busy arresting this guy when his girlfriend came out and punched him right in front of the cops. So they start arresting her and she starts kicking and hitting and screaming at the cops and cries out that she is getting raped. People rarely tell the truth when they are getting arrested.

comedyrelief wrote:

With no fatal damage to the trachea, complicating medical factors (heart disease), multiple drugs in his system, and coronavirus (dude wasn’t wearing a mask), the prosecution will have a hard time over coming reasonable doubt on the murder charge, especially since the technique was standard policy. The manslaughter charge should stick.

Feels like that's where this is going

Great post.

I thought it was proven years ago when someone else stated he couldn't breathe that if you are able to speak you are able to breathe. Yeah, criminals never lie!

ex-runner wrote:

If any letsrunners think they would survive being in that position with three blokes on your back squeezing the air out of you and one 80kg man kneeling on your jugular then you are insane.

QFE

They do lie, but if they say "I can't breathe" and "I need water" and "please" they usually aren't. Here is a guy that was murdered 3 years ago in a prison by police:

He said EXACTLY the same things Floyd did - "I can't breathe" 100x, and "I need water" and "Please please please". But police didn't take him seriously, got on him and pepper sprayed him for faking mental illness. They were at the doctor for a mere 3 secs. That's not the treatment a dying man who is suffocating and struggling to breathe deserves. When he was begging for water, they put him in a shower. Few hours later he was found dead in his cell.

Nonayme wrote:

they are trained to keep the subject locked down, to cause least amount of damage and maximum safety for everyone involved. This is from a training course - the position: stomach on floor, multiple people on the subject is what's taught in the police academy

NONE of those people are sitting on the subject's back, and NONE of them have a bodyweight knee on his neck.

Well we dont actually know if its murder or not yet but yall not ready for that conversation

No, the coronavirus was asymptomatic and had probably been from months earlier, according to the report. All the drugs in his system, fentanyl, marijuana, caffeine, etc. did not kill him. Officer Chauvin choking his neck did it.

Sprinkle some coronavirus on him and lets get the hell out of here, Derek!

Murder means an intention to kill, and I think there is a strong argument to be made that he officer didn't mean to kill Floyd.

That being said, I think he was also charged for manslaughter, which does not mean there was an intention to kill, so he could still be found guilty.

Back to the subject. Last week, women were screaming at groups of kids playing basketball or soccer, "I hope you all die of Corona Virus!" This week, a guy with Corona Virus is out doing drugs and breaking other laws.

comedyrelief wrote:

With no fatal damage to the trachea, complicating medical factors (heart disease), multiple drugs in his system, and coronavirus (dude wasn’t wearing a mask), the prosecution will have a hard time over coming reasonable doubt on the murder charge, especially since the technique was standard policy. The manslaughter charge should stick.

Yep.

I see the comedy in that.

Likely they'll just show the video and ask the defense how long can they hold their breath