Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread

You know, I've thought for a long time that much of KL's apparent dishonesty is based on tenuous connections to fact. Like the fact that he really is/was a decent age-group runner, or that he was in the Rocky Mountain West for a week in early July 2010. He definitely was present in Missoula on July 11th, so it is plausible that he was also in Jackson, WY the previous weekend. What I can't stomach is how his friends/family can accept all of the fabrication. But I suppose that is irrelevant. I wish someone could get through to him so that he could release himself from his imaginary world.

not keen on cheating wrote:

He also starts with lots of warmup crap on and finishes in shorts, shirt, and hat. Never the other way around, which would make sense. I really don't like characters like this.

It gets chilly when you're not running MP or when you're waiting at the bus stop.

ouch1000 wrote:

When finally cornered by ScottH with the West Wyoming fabrication, he admitted that he fabricated the results, but still maintained that he ran 26 miles in Jackson, Wyoming that day. In admitting part of the lie, he told another whopper or two.

The word pathological comes to mind.

He did the same thing with the COX Providence marathon. He told people on his FB wall that he kept up with ChuckEngle(i think?) for the 1st 1/2 mile. But because the results say Kip waited a few minutes before cross the starting line at Providence, it would be impossible for him to have stayed with him. This is just another example.

To legalcurious: You are exactly right when you say that this is not the way it should be. I completely and totally agree with you except for the part in your subsequent post about me being an idiot (although I do and say dumb things from time to time, I’m only a real idiot occasionally). I hope I can convince you that this is not one of those instances.

[/quote]

Sorry for calling you an idiot, it was merely my sense of justice that went off in the wrong direction and I completely agree about what you're saying, especially this part:

"In running, the extension is that many race directors throw up their hands when faced with an allegation of cheating. “I’m really suspicious, but he hit all of the mats, so there is nothing I can do,” is the most common statement. My point regarding the Litton case is that although there was ample evidence to disqualify him from all of his 2010 marathons, race directors were reluctant to do so either because they were afraid of the administrative work or afraid that Litton would contest the DQ"

There is definitely enough evidence to DQ Litton.

I have just learned about Litton's next two marathons. Sunday he will be in Chicago pacing a friend to an attempt at 2:50. He is not registered and I do not know yet how far he will be going. I know there will be lots of LetsRunners there- keep your eyes open.

Even more interesting is that he recently registered for the Zoom Yah Yah Marathon in Minnesota on Jan 8. For those who don't know, this race is entirely on an INDOOR track! There are less than 50 entrants- need I say more? Do we have any LRs that live in the MSP area?

This is gonna be good...

If he truly is signed up, I'll drive the 1/2 hour down to Northfield to check it out.

Are you on dope? wrote:

d2xccoach wrote:

Someday I hope to speak with Kip to get the full story.

Why would Kip ever talk to you or anyone? Don't hold your breath.

Kip and I have talked on the phone and I may have exchanged emails with him. That was a few months before this whole hoo-hah started blowing up. We had a completely cordial conversation. What I wrote was based on these personal conversations, although given how this has played out I suspect he won't be calling back.

Hi Ouch-

I have spoken with a few of people in regards to this issue, you'd be on the short list. I'd probably remember your voice/name but to be honest it all kind of blends together. I certainly do remember our conversation though!

Based on what I know of our course congestion over the first 9.5 miles (at 9.5 you turn onto Pine St where it's a lot wider compared to the pack of runners) I wouldn't be so quick to say with certainty that a runner couldn't do 7:00 pace even starting at the back. Without question over the first 1k you could not. That's up Pearl St. Much of this street has barricades to keep spectators back. A runner could not move to the sidewalk to get around slower runners. However, when we turn right onto Willard St a runner would be able to move onto the sidewalk. Spectators are sparse in that area, not non-existant but nothing like Battery St, Church St, or Pearl St. On Church St, miles 2.7-2.9 and 9.2-9.4 it would be really hard to pass too many runners, just too narrow.

I also know that when runners get to mile 3.2, coming back through the start zone, you would be able to pass a lot of people. We use cones to split the street into 3 lanes (2 for racing it's an out-and-back section plus 1 for a relay exchange zone). I work this area every year to keep things safe, and although most runners stay inside the cones I'm always yelling at a few runners who are outside the cones. It's not an issue of cutting the course by running outside the cones so we don't pay that much attention to the runners who are sprinting by the slower runners in that area. What we see a lot is this is right after the first relay exchange is made. 2nd leg runners for relay teams with a slow first runner are often outside the cones, some running what I'd estimate to be sub 6's.

I do have a few other examples in my file of decent runners who either missed our start or started near the back (stuck in porto lines...late driving in...started with a friend, etc) and went on to run solid times. Nobody ran sub 3 like Kip did, but a few have been sub 3:10 to make a BQ.

The geometry of VCM would support a runner tripping the start mat then stepping off the course, then rejoining the race near the 10 mile mark. In this regard VCM isn't dissimilar to many road races. We all know this is an outdoor sport and few races are held on courses that are 100% locked down. Bottom line, if someone really wants to cheat there isn't a race out there that you can't figure out a way to do it and possibly get away with it.

For 2010 we had 2 unannounced checkpoint systems in place, but I'm sad to say neither worked 100%. 2010 was our largest finisher numbers ever, up over 10% from any previous year. Kip does show up on one of our systems (audio tape reading of bib numbers at the 12.5 mile mark, furthest point south), but does not show up in backup photography at mile 9.2. For what it's worth, our photographer did miss a number of other runners in the time period I calculated Kip would have come through that area. I wish we had 100% coverage or video tape at 9.2.

Someone else asked if it's possible Kip ran from 13.1 to 20 and may have cut the course elsewhere. That is certainly a possibility. As I've stated a number of times, 13.1 to 20 is the section I believe would be hardest to get between if one were taking a car or bike during the race. 13.1 to 20 was Kip's slowest section, 6:51/mile (6:11/mile to 6:27/mile the other sections). 13.1 to 20 does include the biggest uphill on our course but that's not enough, to me, to account for the discrepancy.

Thanks for the good words on 2011, I appreciate that. I issued 4 DQ's this year. In all cases their first half/second half splits didn't make any sense, plus they were all missing the 20 mile split time. One was also missing on our audio tape bib check at mile 21.5, but the other 3 would have come through 21.5 after we turned off the tape (we only taped up through 8:15/mile). None of these DQ's contacted me afterwards to dispute our action. The bigger issue is the runners whose B-tags malfunction and we have to research to get them in the official results. Had about 30 of those this year, which is cut in half from 2010. It's getting better, but still a learning curve.

d2xccoach wrote:

Someone else asked if it's possible Kip ran from 13.1 to 20 and may have cut the course elsewhere. That is certainly a possibility. As I've stated a number of times, 13.1 to 20 is the section I believe would be hardest to get between if one were taking a car or bike during the race. 13.1 to 20 was Kip's slowest section, 6:51/mile (6:11/mile to 6:27/mile the other sections). 13.1 to 20 does include the biggest uphill on our course but that's not enough, to me, to account for the discrepancy.

That was me, thanks for the answer, very enlightening.

Relay exchanges... that could be an easy way for Kip to get off the course since don't many races put the exchange area near the mats for the relays? I know they do at in my hometown race.

Has anyone else contacted the BAA to get him DQed. I have spoken to one race and am playing phone tag with the Delware RD. He is on board with going to the BAA. I have spoken to the BAA but they want something in writing, and I am having trouble getting all these RDs contacted.

The key is getting the Thunder Road folks on board... does anyone have a contact person there that they know? I have been playing phone tag with race director, but if he wasn't willing to DQ Kip last year I am affraid he won't be willing to help now.

If we want to stop this guy we all have to work towards this. While this is an interesting conversation, we aren't really accomplishing anything...

d2xccoach,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Sounds like you run a good race. Hopefully I can make it out there some year to participate.

I can understand why you didn't make the DQ initially after speaking with Kip and hearing his explanations (despite labeling it "suspicious"). But what I don't understand is why not consider changing your DQ decision now after now learning how many times he has cheated, and how unlikely it is that he actually ran the entire race at VCM? I would think given his reputation and standard cheating methods, which match your race, a DQ could easily be justified.

Basically, at this point I wouldn't think he's earned the benefit of the doubt that might be given to a typical participant with no history of cheating, and which you probably gave him initially without knowing his history. With all you know now, it seems to me perfectly fair to say - look, you have a history of cheating using these methods. If every "i" is not dotted, and every "t" not crossed at my race, and if you were identified as "suspicious" (without prejudice or preconceived notions), then the default is a DQ.

With all you know now about Kip's history outlined here and on SOKLR.com, and given the multiple discrepancies in his performance at your race (wildly different paces, missing from at least one checkpoint, most likely seen in the start video well into the race and running the same pace as those around him yet still producing a 6:10 average pace for the 1st 10 miles??!!, etc..) why not issue a DQ and leave it up to him to convince you?

I would guess at this point your gut has to be telling you he cheated at VCM. If so, why not go with your gut at this point?

I am glad someone asked this... I am curious as well.

Loofa Dog wrote:

Has anyone else contacted the BAA to get him DQed. I have spoken to one race and am playing phone tag with the Delware RD. He is on board with going to the BAA. I have spoken to the BAA but they want something in writing, and I am having trouble getting all these RDs contacted.

What exactly does the BAA want in writing? I exchanged an email with the City of Trees race director (who had already DQ'd Kip on race day). Depending on what you need, and if something from that race director would be helpful, I could try contacting the City of Trees director again.

Just spell out exactly what you need in writing (is email ok?), and from which races, so we know how/if we can help.

honest question wrote:

What exactly does the BAA want in writing? I exchanged an email with the City of Trees race director (who had already DQ'd Kip on race day). Depending on what you need, and if something from that race director would be helpful, I could try contacting the City of Trees director again.

Just spell out exactly what you need in writing (is email ok?), and from which races, so we know how/if we can help.[/quote]

Basically what I have been doing is contacting the race directors, and asking if they have heard of Kip. Ironically, all of them have. I explain to them the situation with him using a bogus time to get into Boston and that there is a group of individuals that are taking it to the BAA. I also explain that since he has already cheated in a BAA races and that with a history of cheating in other races, that should be enough to get him removed from being an entrant in the Boston Marathon. I explained to the BAA offical that he cheated in their own 5K and she told me she was going to take it to her boss. That was when she wanted the history of him cheating in other races. I am to follow up with her next week.

Since most of these race directors are just normal people, it can be a lot of phone tag.

Dick Tracy Jr wrote:

I have just learned about Litton's next two marathons.

Dear Dick,

I'm sure if you've been reading this thread for a year, you know how unforgiving and jaded most of us are as a result of KL's apparent cheating, dishonesty, invention of results and impersonation of LR trolls. So I'm sure you'll understand that many of us operate from a precautionary skepticism when we see surprising new information. Most of the time, when LR folks have discovered new race registrations, they've posted the link or revealed how they came by the information.

You've discovered two new registrations simultaneously, which is pretty bizarre. Would you kindly share how you became aware of this information? Someone with a registered LR name who has posted frequently on this thread will need to independently verify it in order for us to know that you aren't KL himself. (It appears that KL has often posted "interesting" or new information on the thread only to be discovered and called out by the skeptical community here over and over again.) If you're legit, you won't be annoyed by the initial skepticism.

Waiting for your reply...

One other thing for everyone to remember - if you twist the famous investment small print around, you get "Future performance does not guarantee past results." This applies to Mr. Litton. If he actually gets himself in shape and runs a decent marathon this next year, it does nothing to negate his dishonesty in so many past races. They still stand as his legacy. The only thing he can ever do to redeem himself is to come clean by talking with the reporter and helping the running community to learn how he evaded so many race controls.

It's not a fair Kip

Every breath you take

Every time you fake

Every bond you break

Every step you take

You little snake

We'll be watching you

Good Contacts for making a case before the BAA:

MAIN CONTACTs:

Michigan - posts here as "ClarkstonKent"

Montana - posts here as "Ouch1000"

OTHER CONTACTs:

Delaware - not sure if he posts on letsrun but did DQ Litton himself at his marathon. He calls out Kip's cheating on his personal blog here:

http://races2run.blogspot.com/2010/08/world-record-runkip-litton.html

Idaho - City of Trees Marathon in IDAHO. I'm not sure who the director was there but he DQ'ed Litton from the awards and thus would also be a potentially good contact if backup is needed when you go to BAA.

Vermont City Marathon - "d2xccoach" (recently posted Here) - knows all about what VT city.

And lastly, we need to emphasize to the BAA that Kip Litton very clearly cheated at a BAA event: the 2010 BAA 5K (where he managed a 17:17 5k - 40th overall despite a 4:04 gun/chip differential - in a race with elites like Josh Cox).

http://kiplitton.blogspot.com/2011/01/analysis-of-baa-2010-5k-result.html

if you want to make a case before the BAA, you gotta round 'em up and do it as a group. We've got documented DQs on Litton in Montana, South Dakota, Delaware, and Idaho(city of trees)