Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Correction above:

"I know most all people in the west think the same or very similar to Antonio."

Ok, Antonio, since I warned you and you decided to not take my advice (which is of course your perogative), and the Dunes' opinions keep flowing, I too will ignore my own advice, and comment on Dunes' comments:

(but I will say THIS first Antonio: you are paying WAY more respect to this nutcase DunesRunner [and if you trust me on anything....trust me on THIS: he IS a nutcase] than you have to Marius Bakken and Frank Evertson. Fine, you seem to have a problem with those two, and that again is your perogative. But I personally have 1000000 x more respect for one word of theirs than 500 pages of words of Dunes Runner. I just needed to say that)-

His last post, which appears to be full of.........something......I guess passion of some sort.....can be summed up this way:

* Dunes has own opinion.

* Everyone has their own opinion (yes, so far, very noteworthy stuff)

* Dunes thinks drugs have a negative impact on society (very original)

* Dunes does not care about drug use in sports, only training and performance in sports

* When it comes to someone "using drugs" Dunes "does not care what anyone does in that sense."

A-HA.....finally, we got somewhere. Dunes does not care if an athlete uses drugs or not. This might explain his defense of Regina Jacobs, Olga Yergova, and now the Chinese woman runners of the early/mid 90's. HE DOESN'T CARE IF THEY USE DRUGS. But he will defend the case that they did not use drugs passionately.

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE????

IF YOU DON'T CARE, THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

Antonio, you are fairly new to the boards, so you can be pardoned for not really knowing dunes runners' past "accomplishments" on this board. But please, take a moment to read some Dunes Runner classics from the past. After reading them, TELL ME I am being unfair to him.......you won't be able to do it.

(read these attacks on Paula Radcliffe and defense of Yergova. His lack of logic boggles the mind. This thread is in fact a classic in its own twisted way)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=11908&page=0

(another good one here)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=208938&thread=208611

There are many, many more. This is just a sampling. Enjoy

Dunes, I'm one of those people. Along with Ovett and Harry Wilson by the way.

Some ladies will run 29:45 ish soon. But they will be deemed clean. Only Wang, who did a 29:31 12 years ago, is suspect, it seems. Not Paula 2:15. Not MJ 19.32. Not Geb taking 11-12sec off the 5k WR. Not the guys who run a second 5k of a 10k = Moorcroft WR time. Why is Wang singled out? Why would the IAAF approve if drug testing so suspect?

Another subject if I may: Future of 1500m WR. I have a feeling that 3:22 will be accomplished with a fast start, and not a big kick at the end. 54 last lap, but 54 for all the other laps too. The improvements will come in the first half. Training may be adjusted towards this tactic.

Discuss.

Cheers

GILT

dunes, you are a retard. you think epo does nothing to improve your peformance? obviously you havent done much scientific research on the subject. you are nieve my friend.

nieve = snow

Dunes, Ma Junren put those women through severe workouts, and if they didn't comply, he beat them. The Chinese women say that they were beaten regularly.

If he was enough of an abuser to beat them regularly, why wouldn't he drug them too?

I don't think those women deliberately took illegal substances, but I think they were probably doped by their abusive coach.

Jon,

I'm not denying that it's a **possibility**, just as it's a strong possibility that Racliffe is on a lot of different substances, and that perhaps Fernanda Ribeiro regulary blood doped, and also the possibility that all European and American distance runners are on drugs, and none of the Africans.

Yes, these are all **possibilities**.

However again let's look at the PILL THEORY of athletic success. I certainly don't condone beating, nor violence of any kind, especially against women. On a different issue an advocate of the PILL THEORY, rather than beating the women would probably have killed them, i.e. the QUICK FIX type of mentality.

Everything I see about the Chinese probably shows they, and Ma Junren, did nothing that was related to the PILL THEORY or a QUICK FIX for their training.

Thus in my estimation of the probabilties of different runners using or having used drugs, the percentages on a scale of 1 to 100 is as follows:

Wang Junxia: 0 to 1 percent probability

Fernanda Ribeiro: 20 to 25 percent probability

Paula Radcliffe: 100 percent probability

I would say less than 10 percent probability for Ribeiro, with the exception that Antonio has stated he things Carlos Lopes blood doped, and then didn't answer my questions about his knowledge of blood doping for Ribeiro. Regardless of that I am just basing that percentage on the Portuguese focus of the importance of drugs. They seem to have a very high esteem for them, but not nearly as high as the conviction of Radcliffe.

dunes runner wrote:

Thus in my estimation of the probabilties of different runners using or having used drugs, the percentages on a scale of 1 to 100 is as follows:

Wang Junxia: 0 to 1 percent probability

Fernanda Ribeiro: 20 to 25 percent probability

Paula Radcliffe: 100 percent probability

I would say less than 10 percent probability for Ribeiro, with the exception that Antonio has stated he things Carlos Lopes blood doped, and then didn't answer my questions about his knowledge of blood doping for Ribeiro. Regardless of that I am just basing that percentage on the Portuguese focus of the importance of drugs. They seem to have a very high esteem for them, but not nearly as high as the conviction of Radcliffe.

THANK YOU Dunes Runner. With THAT post I believe you have gone a long way towards convincing Antonio (and any others that might have given you the benefit of the doubt) that my opinion about your sanity( as in your COMPLETE lack there of) is 100% right. You have done more with that post towards proving my points about your irrational nature than anything I could have written about you.

BRAVO!

Lance,

Thanks for posting those old links yesterday.

It was interesting to read through them again.

Here's the thing I want to know, if Renato will answer:

As we are speaking about improvements, let's speak about what has to be the most spectacular improvement EVER on an elite level:

28:19, lapped by Gebrselassie, to 26:30, 1 second behind Gebrselassie. The first was Kemboi on May 31, at Hengelo, the second on September 5, same year, at Brussels.

That is 1:49 off the 10K, already from a 28:19 runner. How is THAT possible? Why are there no other runners within HAILING distance of that type of progression?

Can you find a single other runner that even took THIRTY SECONDS, much less ONE HUNDRED AND NINE (1:49), off their 10,000 meter performance while already at a high level?

And, to add to that above caveat, what other 28:00 runner has done that IN TWELVE WEEKS?

Renato, that is one for you to answer.

will shaheen run 5,000 meters in Helsinki? what is the point of another 3,000m steeplechase (he has won already in 2003) when he can have El Guerrouj and Kipchoge, also Sileshi Sihine and Abraham Chebii, in the 5,000 meters? He has 12:48, only Bekele (12:37) Geb (12:39) Komen (1239) Kipchoge (12:46) Sihine (12:47) are ever faster.

The 28:19 was not his PR. So it is misleading to say he improved 1:49 over the course of 12 weeks. His best did not improve 1:49 in 3 months, but his fitness did. I'm not sure what he ran the yeat previous to that, but I imagine it was somewhere in the realm of a 13-flat 5k (thus equivalent to about 27:00-27:10 10k). So he did knock down 30-40 seconds in a year - which is a crapload at that level - but not 1:49 in 3 months. When he ran that 28:19, he was out of shape (he had only done easy runs runs and not that much mileage for a few months previous) and I would guess that he went out fast. He probably tried to run 27:00 with the rest of the race, but died because he wasn't that fit yet; probably if he went for 27:30-27:45 in that race, he could've got it, but thats only speculation. Then for 3 months he trained dilligently and was improving. He ran 13:05 for 5k halfway through that summer, and then hit the 26:30.

saying that Kemboi "improved" 1:49 for 10km in 3 mos. is like saying Paul McMullen "improved from 3:4x to 3:33 in 2001 in a season -- the ability was there but fitness was poor at first.

Then do any of you have his previous PR, or are you simply speculating?

And I believed you highlighted another point as to this improvement:

13:05 for ONE 5K, then a few weeks later, 13:15 for TWO STRAIGHT 5K's without stopping. Aside from general information ("Kemboi did a half marathon in 62:00, some mileage, 600-500-400 workout in these times...") Renato has not said much about this guy.

A 62:00 half, a 13:05 5K, or any of those marks do not equate to a 26:30.

And what is this about Kemboi falling off the radar, running 13:22 last year in Oslo, and not making the Olympic team? How can the 4th fastest ever not have motivation enough to train?

here is a repost from Renato in regards to Kemboi:

"Regarding Nicholas, his basic work was based on long run till 1 hr 30:00 and short sprint climbing. During that period Nicholas ran 2 HM, the first one in 62:07 in february or beginning of march, the second in Lisbon where he finished in 60:31. But after this, he went for easy training for two months, and in Hengelo (1st of June) he ran only 28:19, lapped by Bekele, Gebre and Sihine. So, when he went to Switzerland, I needed to rebuild also general endurance, also if I spent for this goal only one month. This period was of sure very important, but for running 26:30 the specific period was most fundamental.

But is not possible to say that one period is more important than another. Without basic period, is not possible to go for specific period of quality. But without specific period is not possible to reach your best. It's like building a house : is more important the first floor or the tenth floor in a house of 15 floors ? One cannot exist without the other. So, if is not possible to develop intensity without basic training, is not possible to develop performances without intensity."

From another post:

"Anyway, I continue speaking about NICHOLAS KEMBOI. He was already n. 4 and n. 7 in two different editions of World Cross Country Junior Ch. (2001 - 2002), so was not an unknown athlete. I'm his coach from september of 2001. Soon after WCCCH 2002, he was injured in a muscle, and lost 4 months of the past season. When came back, was not able to do any speed workouts, because yet felt pain in the leg. So, I decided to move him to longer distances, as he has the possibilities to become a very top marathon runner in the future (he's really born at the end of 1983). In march of this year, he was able running HM in Lisbon in 60:31, without any specific training, demonstrating his attitudes for long run. Then, was for about 40 days in Portugal for some road race, and went to Hengelo (10000m) without track preparation. His 28'19" was not so bad. After 2 weeks in Kenya, he came with me in Switzerland (Davos) from the beginning of July. I preferred to develop a good base of volume, running about 250 km per week during the first 2 weeks, with very slow training on track, but using short sprints uphill (60-80m about) for improving his capacity in recruiting the most part of his muscular fibres. He went running in Sotteville (13'42", 5th position) on 8/07, then in Algier (19/07), yet 13'42". Only after this race I decided to put some work of speed in his training. In short time, I discovered his speed, and was a surprise also for me. After a work with 4 sets of 600/500/400/300/200m (2 min rec. and 5 min among sets) in 1'33" / 1'16" / 60" / 44" / 28", he was able running the last 200m (free) in 23"7 ! So, speaking with him, I understood that he was not fast BECAUSE WAS SURE TO BE SLOW. He decided to try, changing his mentality. So, he went to Heusden (2/08) running in 13'14"43 after pacing (3rd position), then in San Sebastian (10/08) yet in 13'14"32 n. 2 with many mistakes during last lap, then in Zurich (15/8) almost won running in 13'01"14 with a good final. So, we decided to train hard 3 weeks for running 10000 in Bruxelles. I was sure about 26'45", but 26'30" surprised me also. In any case, during the last period his improvement was terrible, because every thing was really easy. For ex., on 23/8 he did a work with 3000m (2' rec) 6 x 60m sprint climbing (2' rec) x 4 times, more a final 1000 fast. His times were (in St. Moritz from 31/7, at 1800m of altitude) 8'23", 8'24", 8'17", 8'23" and 2'30"5 with last lap in 54"6 and last 200 in 24"8 (Kwalia took 5" during last lap). Kemboi may be the new Gebre, able running from 1500m to marathon. Not drug, but big talent and big motivation, and also big intelligence, because there are other athletes coming to Europe at the same level, but not able to improve because "too much kenyans" yet...."

***************

Renato later added that after the 2003 season, Kemboi, with his winnings and money went to build a house in Kenya and ended up taking 9 mos. off from running, whereas the Ethiopians were busy training.

I read that stuff, and I think it would nearly impossible to find an athlete on any level who had an improvement comparable to running 13:42 for 5,000 at one point in the season, than several weeks later running 26:30! He did 13:42 on July 19. He ran 26:30 on September 5. That's 48 days of training!

What on earth type of training would have you do that? Let me pose it this way:

Has anyone, in 48 days, gone from running some 5K time that they had run a few times before and seemed to be stuck at (a la Kemboi's 2 13:42's) to running a 10K averagin for each 5K TWENTY SEVEN SECONDS faster than they ran alone for a 5K earlier in the year?

And, again, how can an athlete so motivated that he has 26:30, the 4th best ever, go from this training to slacking off for 9 months?

Is not the distance runner a compulsive creature? What distance runner leaves his training for 9 months to build a house?

C'mon!

Ancient Art of Dim Mak wrote:

Is not the distance runner a compulsive creature? What distance runner leaves his training for 9 months to build a house?

C'mon!

Different culture. You and I may be compulsive about our training, but just because someone runs astounding times, doesn't mean that they'll value their running as we would.

As for the 48 days of training, it's gaining fitness, sharpness. I'm coming back from a long time down right now -- the running I'm doing this week was impossible 7 weeks ago.

trackhead wrote:

Different culture. You and I may be compulsive about our training, but just because someone runs astounding times, doesn't mean that they'll value their running as we would.

As for the 48 days of training, it's gaining fitness, sharpness. I'm coming back from a long time down right now -- the running I'm doing this week was impossible 7 weeks ago.

But surely such a fast runner would enjoy his running enough to want to train and use his talent?

How did he run 26:30 in the first place?

And for you it is different; you were at a level before and lost it, and are now coming back to it.

Kemboi was never even CLOSE to 26:30. That is a quantum, gigantic leap.

I would love to see exactly what Kemboi did in those 48 days.