Do elite train in flats?

Jaguar1:

Thank you for your responce. I'd second your idea on testing on three different conditions; trainer, flats and barefoot.

A couple of years ago, I was asked to help out my daughter's elementary school's sports day. It was more of fun events than structured track & field events (except for 50m dash and relay). They had this game of running down the field with a sponge (not Sponge Bob!), dip it in to a drum of water, run back with it and squeeze water into a bucket; relay the sponge and the next one goes off (relay). I noticed a very interesting phenomena--almost all the kids running barefeet were landing almost flat-footed with their lower leg close to vertical to the ground. I did not take any high scpeed film to confirm it but it at least "appears" that way with my eyes. There were a couple of girls, including my daughter, who were playing the rec basketball. With rigid and thick basketball shoes, almost all of them (in fact, I'd say all of them) were landing rather heavy on their heel. I teased (and still am teasing) my daughter that I'd love to take a high speed film of her running in her basketball shoes vs. barefoot on grass and show her the difference. As a usual dad-daughter relationship, she never liestened to me...

Hello Nobby,

Your contributions to these discusssions is greatly appreciated. Previously you mentioned that Japanese runners did run sometimes in more cushioned shoes, but they were not the same as cushioned trainers in the US. So would it be correct to say that shoes like the Asics Tiger Paw or DS Racer would be considered highly cushioned shoes in Japan? Thank you.

I would say that there are three kinds of running shoes in Japan; racing flats, training shoes and jogging shoes. Not to take anything away from any of high profile shoes (I'm being plitically correct here), majority of US "training shoes" would most likely be classified as "jogging shoes". I've heard that ASICS might be bringing some of the Japanese shoes from Japan and someone posted the image (Tarther). You can wear those for racing--as a matter of fact, I saw this Russian runner who placed high at Grandma's marathon wearing them. But I would classify them as "training shoes". This particular model uses their special material and very resilient (cushiony). I use them when my legs, particularly thighs, had taken some beatings. Japanese elite runners tend to use these for warm-up, morning jog, easy training... Doesn't mean NONE of them wear these for high profile training or racing. On the other side of the coin, doesn't mean NONE of them wear flats for easy jogging. I have both kinds and I alternate. Like I said, when my thighs are extra sore, I might wear Tarther type. But I noticed if I wear any shoes with the heel as thick as these, my Ackilles pain comes back within a couple of weeks and I need to go back to low heel shoes. I cannot explain the mechanism (perhaps Jagua1 might???) but that's what I found out.

I know some elites, or near elites, and they cringe at the thought of daily training in racing flats.

One Senior-Division Age group champ I know said "You'd have to be out of your mind to do that. Not every day."

Does anyone want to come up with a list of recommended flats to train in?

It seems like I could just buy any pair of racing flats but after reading some of Nobby's posts, some American flats are Japanese trainers.

I've been to Japan 3 times and been around a Japanese ekiden team once in the states and they love their Asics flats. I never saw them running bulky shoes and these people ran a ton of miles.

So what Asics shoe would you all recommend? I should get a pair of Asics.

And where does the Nike Free and Puma H Street fit in here?

I always see people talking about the H Street and believe it is like running in a sock but never have tried it, but would like to see where these shoes stack up in the spectrum of minimalist to a lot of cushion.

As for the Frees, I've trained in them and laugh at people who say you can't run a lot of miles in minimalist trainers as once you get used to running with less shoe your body adapts. The highest mileage kid on my brothers team runs in the free every day. But I don't consider the Free to be a racing flat, as I would never race in it. Perhaps it is too spongy? I'm not sure what it is. But I was running a mini workout yesterday and took of the Free and put on some flats (perhaps flats are lighter as well) as I didn't want to workout in the free.

So hopefully someone will come up with some good shoe recommendations. And what do you think about rotating between different shoe models? (ie where a h street for a few days, then a different shoe) A good idea or bad?

Thanks in advance.

Wejo: I've been training around 70 mpw (will get into the 80s soon) on all surfaces in the H Streets. They are much less shoe than the Free. I find the Free too spongy, and its heel is too much. I've tried many different racing "flats," and have stayed the healthiest when running in the H Streets. I haven't had the opportunity to try the Mizuno Flagship line or the true Asics racers from Japan.

It took me about 8 months to adjust from orthotics to the H Streets. Best thing that I did for my running after adding doubles to the training.

Asics Tiger Paw (the name is changing in Jan)

Nike Streak Vapor

Nike Streak XC

Mizuno Wave Revolver

Brooks T4

adidas adizero

I run exclusively in racing flats. Over the course of several months, I moved from 2080/2090 and Zoom Elites to NB 900s and Asics DS Trainers and now just racing flats.

I'm sure there are other options. The biggest difference I have noticed is that I run more efficiently with less shoe. Sometimes I wear Skylons to warm up before a race and my legs actually feel funny because I seem to land more on my heels - I can't wait to take them off. My legs also feel better after long runs and I had no trouble running Chicago in Streak XCs.

Why do you need orthotics, flat feet or low arch?

oasis wrote:

Why do you need orthotics, flat feet or low arch?

I don't. I used to wear them when I was a heal striker and ran in trainers because I was told that they would help with my over-pronation. Now, I have a few pair of H Streets with close to 1000 miles and they sit perfectly straight. I have none of the piriformis or IT soreness that I had when I wore the orthotics.

I have flat feet and wear orthotics with a stabilty shoe (NB 766), when I do workouts I wear my Brooks RT flats with my orthotics and they feel so much better to run in. I would like to train in a lighter shoe but with my feet I am worried about injury. Maybe I will try a light weight performance trainer like the NB 900.

If you go that route, you might find the 900 on closeout. The new 901 is only a little thinner/lower than the 766. Check out sierra trading post for Asics DS Trainers on closeout (again, they are a little lower than the current version).

How does the NB 205 compare to tiger paws? Look the same to me...

Sorry, I don't know too much about the NB racing flats. My personal preference is for a shoe that flexes more easily in the forefoot than in the arch. For instance, the Tiger Paw and Streak XC do flex in the midfoot, but the initial flex point is the forefoot. It seems a few of the NB shoes flex primarily in the midfoot before the forefoot - just my observation.

wejo,

You would just want to make sure that the flat is working well with you. For example, I used to train in the Streak XC. I didn't have any stability issues in it, but eventually gave them up because they were not the best fitting shoes for me, and I felt like they were too soft.

But I had a co-worker of mine who trained in the NB 550 and later the H Streets but could not train in the Streak XC because his foot in that shoe produced a terribly unstable ride.

You would just want to make sure that problems like that won't occur -- you'll need someone with a good eye to watch you run in them.

As for the H Streets, it's less like a sock and exactly like a flexible track spike. It is -- literally -- the Puma Harambee minus the spike plate.

No wrote:

I know some elites, or near elites, and they cringe at the thought of daily training in racing flats.

One Senior-Division Age group champ I know said "You'd have to be out of your mind to do that. Not every day."

I know a 65-year-old man who's a very good runner for his age group and prolific racer (30+ races/year), and he's been training in lightweight shoes for the past 40 years; they did an article on him this summer in a regional running magazine. They asked him what's the key to staying healthy all these years, and he said all he's ever trained in is lightweight shoes, nothing else. He said he trades off between different lightweight shoes, as he believes this mixes up the stress and keeps him healthy.

What about the runner who has been in stability trainers with orthotics, no injuries but really likes the feel and less weight of running in flats or lighter trainers, should he try training in flats or lightweight trainers with orthotics or no orthotics.

Yes, I was wondering the same thing. How should we transition if we have been running with orthotics and stability shoes because we have been told that we pronate excessively.

Wejo:

I was always injured all the time before I started wearing the following two flats:

If you have already been using the Frees, you're probably set in terms of having adapted to the greater strain on your Achilles. Honestly, I think if all elite runners used flats and didn't screw around wearing thick bulky clod-hoppers, then spikes for a workout, flats for a race, more thick trainers...it completely messes with the system.

But if you are not completely adapted, change your street shoe to these:

Walk barefoot as much as you can, and if you do strides after runs, do those barefoot. Warmup for workouts barefoot as much as you can. Everything gets stronger, there is more power in the stride, and the speed improves because you can generate more out of every stride.

As for rotating shoes, I have 3-4 pairs, but you really only need 2-3. I use one for all hard workout and 2-3 for easy days.

Try to use a shoe no more frequently than every 36 hours or so. The shoe needs time to decompress and you get a longer life out of it if you wear, for instance, the H Street one day, a NB RC 150 the next, then the H Street again, Free the next, etc.

Best wishes for coming back from injury and getting a sub-28:00. I am sure you will do it.

So, a list:

Puma Harambee Street

New Balance RC 150

New Balance RC 205

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-bin/rrs/rrs/ProductPg.jsp?baseProdKey=NBNBW436&prfc=5&sc=CRM%2D02258&PartnerName=I%2Dsearch%20%28Froogle%29

New Balance RC 950

http://www.newbalance.com/productbrowser/product_details.html?g11n.enc=ISO-8859-1&feature=Racing+Comps&gender=Men&segment=&product=RC950WO&product_type=shoe&sport=Running

(Hard to find; if you have connections with Road Runner Sports, they likely have some lying around).

Nike Zoom Marathoner

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-bin/rrs/rrs/ProductPg.jsp?baseProdKey=RRNIK815&catOID=-11875&BV_SessionID=@@@@0888438027.1131049706@@@@&BV_EngineID=gaddfchlgjiebekgcgecfeedg.0

New Balance RC 750

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-bin/rrs/rrs/ProductPg.jsp?baseProdKey=RRNBA654&catOID=-11875&BV_SessionID=@@@@0888438027.1131049706@@@@&BV_EngineID=gaddfchlgjiebekgcgecfeedg.0

Nike Free

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-bin/rrs/rrs/ProductPg.jsp?baseProdKey=RRNIK824&brand=Nike&BV_SessionID=@@@@0888438027.1131049706@@@@&BV_EngineID=gaddfchlgjiebekgcgecfeedg.0

Nike Mayfly (CAUTION: These WILL break down after a short duration simply because they are made at 4.7 ounces and do not hold up even if you are efficient):

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-bin/rrs/rrs/ProductPg.jsp?baseProdKey=RRNIK607&brand=Nike&BV_SessionID=@@@@0888438027.1131049706@@@@&BV_EngineID=gaddfchlgjiebekgcgecfeedg.0

New Balance RC 550

http://www.newbalancetampa.com/shop/product_detail.asp?model=RC550RW

I recommend Nike, Puma, and New Balance. Adidas has almost nothing, and I personally used to use Asics but do not like like them now, but to each his own.

Someone else asked about orthotics to flats; I wore orthotics for a long time. First, start by walking barefoot, changing your street shoe to the H Street, and cooling down barefoot. 5 minutes barefoot on grass if you've never done it before.

Do that for a week, then 10. If you're still good, 15, then 20. Start using some flats for shorter runs, then add a few miles.

The whole process took me from June to September (completely adapted). Do it and you won't have regrets.