Craig Virgin and Fam have interesting comments on Rupp and NOPe

I think what most of you, including Craig Virgin, are hung up on is the times, not the workout itself. The problem is that he's running times that none of you can fathom ever running, let alone doing it all on the same day. What you're missing though is that Rupp is a hell of a lot better than all of us, including Craig Virgin. Virgin has that same big ego that all professional athletes have and thats that if he can't do it, then no one else can either.

One of this message boards favorite moments to talk about is the German Fernandez double from the California state meet 6 years ago. German set a big PR in the 1600, running 4:00, then came back later and set another big PR in the 3200, running 8:34. He was in the same ballpark of two national records on the same day. I think we would all agree that he hadn't trained anywhere close to the type of milage and intensity that Rupp has had for years, in building up to running those times. In addition, it's probably harder to do it the way Fernandez did it, because his body had enough time to cool down and tighten up.

Rupp's post run workout was hard yes. But what is he doing the next few days? How many recovery days till the next hard workout?

One workout does not tell us much without knowing how it fits in with all of the other training that he is doing.

Omar Little wrote:

There is illegal and there is unethical. Is getting a hypothyroid prescription or an asthma prescription or a viagra prescription for a person who is an elite athlete and otherwise healthy illegal or unethical. Remember the best are always one step ahead of those trying to catch them. Lance and Michele Ferrari were always a step ahead. Why is this not happening in track and field?

Exactly. Salazar's regimen most likely falls in the legal but unethical category

This workout is the toughest Ive ever seen or heard of.

I have never heard of anyone running 2 miles all out, full recovery, then 4x1600 under 10k pace. Then one more mile at 2mile pace with only 400m jog recovery.

I don't care how fast you run that workout is out there even for a pro.

Can anyone list a more impressive workout for a 5k 10k runner?

People calling this workout easy (if you scaled it down to your level) have obviously never been an elite runner.

Clearly Fam and Virgin think its a ridiculous workout and they've been to a similar level. So who are you on this board to call it an easy or a typical workout (delusional Lindgren who thinks he was on sub 2:00 marathon pace through 20 miles?)

The Rocket... wrote:

This workout is the toughest Ive ever seen or heard of.

I have never heard of anyone running 2 miles all out, full recovery, then 4x1600 under 10k pace. Then one more mile at 2mile pace with only 400m jog recovery.

I don't care how fast you run that workout is out there even for a pro.

Can anyone list a more impressive workout for a 5k 10k runner?

How about an 8:18/13:21 steeple/5000 double? With the first 1600 of the 5000 in 4:08? Guess who...

The Rocket... wrote:

Can anyone list a more impressive workout for a 5k 10k runner?

Yes, all the guys that have a faster 10k time than Galen did a more impressive workout.

Okay enlighten me. Give me one workout?

Well I know offhand that Bekele did 1 x 10k in 26:17.

Did someone actually say the thyroid medications were not in a gray area?

It's a legal way to boost EPO production, burn away fat and augment adaptations in the slow fiber. That's about as gray as it gets. There is

also evidence that corticosteroid use is ergogenic (recovery and substrate availability). Long term use of these however has serious drawbacks.

The adrenaline injection story is interesting. I do believe that some athletes are using this but truthfully the evidence of benefit is dubious. Epinephrine infusion does not boost epinephrine levels or performance in peak exercise but sadly there are coaches out there encouraging its use.

I'm not even a little surprised by this controversy. Athletics West encouraged drug use. This was a Nike funded group.

Salazar and Slaney were the stars. I wish more AW athletes would come forward.

I don't agree with Virgin on much but I do understand his frustration and incredulity. These post-race workouts say more about Salazar's insecurity than any athlete's fitness level.

wallowing in the past wrote:

The Rocket... wrote:

This workout is the toughest Ive ever seen or heard of.

I have never heard of anyone running 2 miles all out, full recovery, then 4x1600 under 10k pace. Then one more mile at 2mile pace with only 400m jog recovery.

I don't care how fast you run that workout is out there even for a pro.

Can anyone list a more impressive workout for a 5k 10k runner?

How about an 8:18/13:21 steeple/5000 double? With the first 1600 of the 5000 in 4:08? Guess who...

Hayward field had a 440 yard track in 1978. That 4,08 for the first 4 laps was a mile not 1600.

Hammerin Hank wrote:

wallowing in the past wrote:

How about an 8:18/13:21 steeple/5000 double? With the first 1600 of the 5000 in 4:08? Guess who...

Hayward field had a 440 yard track in 1978. That 4,08 for the first 4 laps was a mile not 1600.

How much rest?

Still think Galen's workout is tougher.

So Rupp was phenom yet didn't win an NCAA title until his sr year, didn't break 4 until then and after slow progression goes beserk?

Some flip switche din alberto/nike after the first failed nike project with Hartman, Browne and others. The only notable result they produced was Philemon Hanneck scored with prostitutes.

The Rocket... wrote:

Hammerin Hank wrote:

Hayward field had a 440 yard track in 1978. That 4,08 for the first 4 laps was a mile not 1600.

How much rest?

Still think Galen's workout is tougher.

I'm not sure why you think Galen's is tougher.

Let's break it down:

We can effectively say that the steeple and 2M amount to the same thing, and if anything the steeple might be slightly more stressful due to the jumps.

The only difference then, is in the second part of the workout.

4xMile with a good 4+ min recovery at slower than 10k pace is, by itself, hardly what we would consider a difficult workout. To call it easy is unfair, but it's certainly far from hard.

Then we take a massive rest (at least 5, probably more minutes) and run a mile at 3k pace.

VS.

An all out 3.1 miles.

I honestly don't know how you could call Galen's workout harder. You really think 4xMile slower than 10k with long rest, followed by more rest and a 3k pace mile is more difficult than a 5k race?

Every runner experiences things differently, but for me I certainly can't imagine that workout being anywhere near as difficult as a 5k race.

dsrunner wrote:

Did someone actually say the thyroid medications were not in a gray area?

It's a legal way to boost EPO production, burn away fat and augment adaptations in the slow fiber. That's about as gray as it gets. There is

also evidence that corticosteroid use is ergogenic (recovery and substrate availability). Long term use of these however has serious drawbacks.

WADA doesn't think thyroid medications are a gray area. They don't consider it performance enhancing and do not require a TUE. In the end theirs is the only opinion that matters.

In_Ithaca wrote:

Disclaimer: Havent read through the whole thread.

Those of you that are saying, this isn't that hard of a workout compared to his fitness. Anybody could do this if you scaled it to their prs... etc.

Just want to say, nah man. After a 3k pr, no chance I, or runners i knew, could of done the equivalent workout. This stuff is crazy. If you don't think they are up to something beyond clean living and hard work youre nuts.

That being said, its sure exciting. Made me come back to the forums after who knows how long away.

Bruce,

You were amazing back in the day. I remember reading of you on these very boards. Glad to see you back.

For those of you who don't know of him (from Wikipedia):

"In secondary school competition, Bruce Hyde was a 4:20 miler. As a team member for Cornell University Track & Field Team, he achieved a 4:00 equivalent and fourth-place showing at the 2004 USA Indoor Meet with a 8:03 and then a 3:42. He won the Heptagonal title, the NCAA Regional title, and All-American honors at the NCAAs, where he finished just behind Ryan Hall.

After 2004, Bruce Hyde took a hiatus from competitive running. Early in 2006, comeback rumors circulated.[6] The official comeback did occur in 2008, when Hyde ran a 3:55.76 full mile at the Cornell Opener in late March. In fact, it was later revealed in 2008 that a puckish Hyde had, indeed, staged a covert comeback in 2006. He ran under the pseudonym Bruce Denton. Hyde ran 2:00.71.[7] The 2008 effort was complicated. Track statisticians debated whether it should count as an Ivy League record. At issue was whether the fact that Hyde was in his 8th year at Cornell should disqualify his standing. Shifting focus later that year, Hyde entered the World Series of Poker."

how about this: has anyone out there actually done mile repeats at around 10k pace? I don't think I ever have. It doesn't sound that hard.

mile reps at 10k pace? anyone?

Are people really so blind. Stray Gunderson may have done research on altitude but do you know that he also researched EPO in depth and learned many things about how it operates in the body and how long it stays in the body. Ironically, he is consulted by Alberto

Dr. Brown has been affiliated with many top athletes including Pat Smythe, Ryan Hall, Rupp, Farah and many more. They are all going to him because he is sketchy and gives prescriptions out like candy. Plus he is also consulted and paid by Nike. Name a top guy that he turned down? Not one. If these athletes trained properly they wouldn't have thyroid issues. Thyroid hormone shifts no matter how you train that is normal. These guys are cheaters point blank.

Hmmmm, if these things dont shake your faith in clean athletics then you my friend are lost and blind.

put another way, per daniels, tempo pace for Rupp is 4:32/mile. So he ran 4 x 4 minute pieces at around 12 seconds faster than tempo pace. with much rest. then a fast one.

I'm not that talented, I run half the miles as rupp, and I could do that without much stress.