dkdkld wrote:
looks like saratoga could potentially be the best in the country if they hadn't lost macdonald and carr...
Except that FM lost Rutledge and Martin.
dkdkld wrote:
looks like saratoga could potentially be the best in the country if they hadn't lost macdonald and carr...
Except that FM lost Rutledge and Martin.
impressive wrote:
That's so ridiculous. Who says that's what high school girls are SUPPOSED to do? I can't think of anything better than learning discipline and the importance of hard work at an early age. That makes relationships, friendships and career goals so much easier and more meaningful later in life.
And why is all of this structure and hard work criticism typically only aimed at the girls team?
It's equally applicable for the boys. We just happened to be talking about the girls' team at the moment. I don't approve of control-freak coaches in general, but at least I understand it at the professional and (to some extent) top-flight DI level. If Vin or Salazar wants his boys to eat, sleep, and breathe running, that's fine. They are among the most talented distance runners in America. But a high school coach? No. Let kids be kids. You can run an hour a day and still be a regular guy (or girl) for the other 23 hours.
ferafsd wrote:
impressive wrote:That's so ridiculous. Who says that's what high school girls are SUPPOSED to do? I can't think of anything better than learning discipline and the importance of hard work at an early age. That makes relationships, friendships and career goals so much easier and more meaningful later in life.
And why is all of this structure and hard work criticism typically only aimed at the girls team?
It's equally applicable for the boys. We just happened to be talking about the girls' team at the moment. I don't approve of control-freak coaches in general, but at least I understand it at the professional and (to some extent) top-flight DI level. If Vin or Salazar wants his boys to eat, sleep, and breathe running, that's fine. They are among the most talented distance runners in America. But a high school coach? No. Let kids be kids. You can run an hour a day and still be a regular guy (or girl) for the other 23 hours.
Totally disagree with this. Check out any great sports program in high school. Football, soccer, swimming, doesn't matter the sport. If those kids are succeeded, it's not because they're practicing for one hour a day and then being "regular" the other 23. They are living and breathing their sport, 24-7. Look at a gymnast - she's practicing up to 5 hours a day by the time she's 10, being incredibly careful with her diet and the amount of sleep she gets.
If a kid wants to be great, let them. Don't hold them back with this garbage about being a "regular kid". Regular is a matter of perspective and it's different for everyone.
And no - it's not equally applied to the boys program, in general anyway. There's still a bias in most people that thinks boys can handle more work than girls. That girls will be happier painting their nails and going the mall. And I hear that bias loud and clear in many of these posts (and in many conversations).
That's because boys CAN handle more work than girls in terms of absolute workload. It's not some sexist social construct. At most levels, boys run about 10-20 miles a week more than girls. Some of that is because girls just don't run as fast (and hence don't cover as much ground over a 60min run), but some of that is due to other factors as well. Plenty top high school boys are running 70 miles a week or more, but virtually no top high school girl runs that much. If you coached a boys team and a girls team and had them both run 10 miles a day, the girls would have way more injuries and issues, any coach knows this. This gap can be lessened by the end of college and post-collegiately, but by and large even most elite women are not running as much as elite men.
You also bring up gymnastics as an example of dedicated athletes. But would you really want your kid being like that? Burned out and anorexic by age 20? Gymnastics is a great example of what NOT to do.
It's also one thing if the KID WANTS to be dedicated, eat extremely healthy, not be social on the weekends, etc., but totally a DIFFERENT issue when it's the COACH pushing these ideas.
Agree about the coach pushing these ideas. I don't want a coach pushing a certain diet on my kid. It's fine if he says beans and rice are healthier than Mickey D's and most runners don't run well on Big Macs, but I don't want the guy in my refrigerator. I also don't want the coach telling my kid what time to go to bed and get up, it may not work for my kid and I think the parent and kid need to decide these things.
As far as girls' workloads go, I'm no expert but one thing I do know is that girls physically mature earlier than boys, and often peak as runners earlier. They are physiologically different, and usually lighter with smaller muscles. What mileage works for girls as opposed to boys I can't comment on but they are different. For example a HS boy can typically get better every year in HS, whereas with girls, they can often get worse after 8th grade once they fill out. Girls shouldn't be babied but I don't see why they should train on the same schedule as boys. Also you have to consider they are usually 15% slower so running 50 miles for girls and 60 for boys is going to take comparable minutes.
There are no right answers for this stuff but one thing I do know is you are almost never going to see a world class distance runner at the high school level, so maximizing their times at a young age does not seem that beneficial. Teaching values of teamwork, hard work, discipline, and healthy living are all great. Taken to extremes at early ages...I'm not sure. In conclusion I'm not against what FM does, but not really for it either. A HS kid with real talent isn't going to see how good they really are til age 20 or later. It would be a shame to push a really talented kid too far too early for the sake of a not-very-important NXN title. All IMO.
ferafsd wrote:
It's equally applicable for the boys. We just happened to be talking about the girls' team at the moment. I don't approve of control-freak coaches in general, but at least I understand it at the professional and (to some extent) top-flight DI level. If Vin or Salazar wants his boys to eat, sleep, and breathe running, that's fine. They are among the most talented distance runners in America. But a high school coach? No. Let kids be kids. You can run an hour a day and still be a regular guy (or girl) for the other 23 hours.
Have you seen kids these days? If I was a parent I would be ecstatic that a coach doesn't want my kid to be regular. Kids today are horribly lazy. And don't give that "every generation says that" bs. No generation has had access to so many distractions as this generation.
How close will Saratoga be this Saturday?
dkdkld wrote:
looks like saratoga could potentially be the best in the country if they hadn't lost macdonald and carr...
MacDonald ran for Toga in the Section 2 Championships this fall and finished under 19 but couldn't crack their top 7. She is a better track runner and should help their DMR and 4x8 this indoor season.
Madi Carr had surgery (for something I'm told is unrelated to running) and the Kranicks encouraged her not to come back to fast. She should help Toga rock in Fall 2012 when she returns for her senior year along with soph Morin and frosh Hayes who rand 18:29 and 18:35 on the SPAC course but couldn't crack Toga's top 7 to go on to the Championship part of the season.
Really. wrote:
How close will Saratoga be this Saturday?
Close to Tatnall? Probably pretty close either way.
Overall health and a balanced life is where Bill Aris is the strongest. At the clinic in Charlotte last year, he started his training talk with the two most important elements of training – 8 – 10 hours of sleep and a healthy level of iron (ferritin above 50.) Whatever workouts or running scheme you devise, if these two elements are not optimal, you will not be able to work and recover at the highest levels. Get that right first.
If sleep and nutrition are neglected, eventually “kids will strip gears.”
But this whole tripe of “Let kids be kids” and fear of “control freak” coaches “pushing these ideas” (presumably a healthy lifestyle) is crafting a cudgel with which to beat someone who should be your partner in instilling values in your children. A healthy lifestyle is exactly what you would like your kids to adopt.
As Aris said, “Simple, clean honest living is a positive choice, not a sacrifice.” 8 to 10 hours of sleep – that’s a better option than less than 6. A diet that eschews garbage fast food – clearly that’s better than one filled with it. Selflessness beats selfishness.
Reading some threads on LetsRun makes me think drug use among young people is widespread, like it was when I was a high schooler in the 70’s. My own kids, who have gone to different high schools, estimate the pot smokers at about 40 – 50%, and that’s because the freshmen pull down the average. I don’t care if that’s normal, it sure isn’t healthy. “Excellence has nothing to do with normal.”
Many of these kids are texting and facebooking at midnight on school nights. Drinking heavily at parties, smoking weed, taking pain meds to get high, a good chunk of today's kids are hyper-materialistic, spiritually vacant, and coarsened by the over-sexualized culture (Have you SEEN a high school dance lately – the majority of girls grind their behinds into the boys in a public display of sexual enjoyment). If this is becoming the norm, why the hell would you want your child to be “normal”?
That said, I flew 800 miles to hear Aris talk. My school only paid for the clinic fee. I had to pay for everything else. I’m not complaining that I didn’t get my money’s worth, but Coach Newton said that at the start of his career he went halfway across the country to hear Arthur Lydiard when he came to the US in the 60’s. Lydiard allowed him to pick his brain as much as he pleased. Vigil, Timmons and Peter Coe were similarly accommodating.
In Charlotte, Canova, Macmillan, and Vigil were just icing on the cake for me. Aris claims that with him speaking between Canova and Vigil, no one would want to hear about his training? Canova deals with the greatest runners in the world, a totally different animal than the average human according to Canova. Macmilllan deals with pro’s, and I’ve heard Vigil several other times. I wanted to hear what made a small high school team (24-25 girls) into a dynasty that is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in the country. Year after year.
And that includes the specifics (or examples) of the training.
If Coach Aris should happen to read this, here’s two pieces of advice for a man I respect:
1) You’ve achieved a phenomenal amount in the last decade. Like Coach Newton, don’t sweat the critics. There are always people trying to explain why they can’t accomplish what you have. You and Coach Newton teach timeless values that improve the quality of life of those in your charge. Much of the criticism comes BECAUSE you achieve excellence.
2) Don’t be afraid of discussing details of training with other coaches, even if you change them significantly from year to year and kid to kid. It’s one of the most interesting parts of coaching – looking at how to put the puzzle together to get the best result. Like Newton, most other coaches will still not be able to do what you do, even if you gave them the training log of every kid you’ve ever coached. HARD WORK, inspiration, passion, and understanding how your system fits together are the real keys to the success of you and Coach Newton.
Good luck tomorrow to FM, York, CBA and all the other programs that dare to try excellence!
1) FM
2) Saugus
3) Saratoga
4) North Shore
5) Tatnall
6) Fort Collins
7) Simi Valley
8) La Costa Canyon
9) Carmel
10) Redondo Union
well said!
They do it again! 24 points over Kinetic. 6 in a row... Incredible.
1. 60 MANLIUS XC CLUB (18:24 92:00 0:49)
=====================================
1 3 97 Jillian Fanning F 17:50
2 9 100 Katie Sischo F 18:26
3 12 96 Katie Brislin F 18:30
4 16 99 Alana Pearl F 18:35
5 20 101 Hanna Smith F 18:39
6 ( 21) 98 Jenna Farrell F 18:40
7 ( 43) 95 Annika Avery F 19:06
2. 84 KINETIC XC CLUB (18:38 93:07 0:33)
=====================================
1 8 106 Estela Smith F 18:23
2 10 102 Taylor Driscoll F 18:27
3 13 103 Keelin Hollowood F 18:32
4 25 104 Olivia Morrow F 18:49
5 28 107 Maggi Szpak F 18:56
6 ( 51) 105 Tara Peck F 19:13
7 ( 99) 108 Katie Treichel F 19:58
3. 182 WILMINGTON XC CLUB (18:50 94:07 1:53)
=====================================
1 2 143 Haley Pierce F 17:42
2 11 140 Reagan Anderson F 18:28
3 33 141 Kieran Hanrahan F 19:00
4 59 144 Rebecca Salter F 19:22
5 77 146 Julie Williams F 19:35
6 (100) 142 Kate Hastings F 19:58
7 (149) 145 Caroline Silverman F 22:02
4. 182 WILMETTE RUNNING CLUB (18:58 94:48 0:53)
=====================================
1 14 29 Meridith Smith F 18:34
2 15 23 Courtney Ackerman F 18:35
3 24 24 Jessica Ackerman F 18:48
4 62 26 Julianna Jackson F 19:24
5 67 28 Molly Krueger F 19:27
6 (109) 27 Kathleen Keene F 20:10
7 (127) 25 Anna Berglund F 20:37
5. 195 CARMEL XC CLUB (19:04 95:17 0:15)
=====================================
1 26 22 Renee Wellman F 18:53
2 37 19 Kelsey Harris F 19:03
3 42 21 Kelcy Welch F 19:06
4 44 17 Gina Genco F 19:07
5 46 16 Sarah Bennett F 19:08
6 ( 63) 20 Allison Jacobsen F 19:24
7 ( 78) 18 Haley Harris F 19:36
Summer is almost here. What are the specifics in their summer program?
photofinish wrote:
Do what?
It.
bump
AMA, are you still here?
Seconded. AMA?
Gene pool: lot of Irish-Americans (can you say Jim Ryun, Steve Scott???)
"No secret" wrote:
No one said anything about secrets. What is it with people always saying that? The question was about what they do for training, not what their "secret" is. They obviously do something different. If success was merely a function of how hard kids work, there would be many more teams and individuals in contention for national titles. So what do they do differently from other hard-working teams?
Exactly - they must be doing something different training to other teams to be so consistently better than everyone else. "Builds a great team, not just individuals" doesn't mean anything. It's just a trite expression. FM are better than everyone else because they share group hugs? Come on. It's the training.