Lydiard Aerobic Phase

In 6 bullets, I perceive Lydiard like this:Lydiard's recipe for success:- Develop your base- Add strength- Add speed- Stir- Peak- Repeat

sim wrote:

(maybe you can tell us how you perceive it?

"not a fanatic",

I proposed to put aside dogma and dogmatists, and help me identify, if you can, what is wrong with Lydiard training, and where I can find out more, to help me broaden my perspective.

Lydiard developed his system some 50 years ago, and possibly we have learned a couple of things since then which aren't reflected in his training methods or principles.

I could ask the Lydiard Foundation, but there is an obvious conflict of interest. Therefore I asked you, one of Lydiard's more vocal critics. Are you able to identify any gaps, and add any missing or new perspective?

All these words about meriting the world title of "Father of Jogging", or "straight lacing is the keystone to Lydiard training", whether valid or not, is simply avoiding the question.

Can you brush aside all this historical baggage and stay on topic?

Skuj wrote:

HRE, thanks for MOST of your response to my previous query....but what does "you won't find any schedules or anything" mean? :)

Um, that's pretty self-explanatory but I'll have one more go. There isn't great deal of information about Stampfl in anything Clarke wrote. He's very complimentary toward Stampfl but if you're looking for something about how Stampfl trained Clarke it's not there. The whole time with Stampfl is discussed but not in any great detail. It was certainly a very small part of Clarke's career.

seriously, everyone involved

what are you guys going on and on about

you've been arguing with 'not a fanatic' for like 3 days now

did the OP even get his question answered

I'm really trying to stop answering you but need to make this one comment. Arthur spent his life dealing with people like you. There were often clowns in his audience who knew little or nothing but who decided that if they kept asking smart ass questions and were NEVER satisfied with the answer he gave them that someohow it looked as if they were as good or better at coaching or training or explaining training as he was.

And so, as he knew he was getting to the end, he decided that he wanted his ideas to remain and perhaps to continue helping runners and those who might want to run as way of improving themselves. He also wanted to make sure those ideas were explained by someone or by someones who actually understood them and could explain them pretty much as Arthur would have done rather than have jackals like you distort and misrepresent them.

So he chose Nobby who spent a year living next to Arthur so he could learn what Arthur did, who stayed in constant touch with him after leaving New Zealand, who took on the effort and in some cases the expense of arranging tours so that Arthur could continue to explain his ideas for as long as possible rather than have the ideas become distorted and else effective.

None of this will impress you because to you it's just fodder for another smart ass reply. Yeah, you're really clever, thinking up some way to draw an analogy between the Lydiard foundation and the Catholic Church.

What I really appreciate here are the other guys who've come on and also called you a jackass in some form or other. So go right on with your multiple identities, your refusal to respond clearly to a clear answer and your clever little analogies. Tell yourself that you're really involved in a discussion that is helping advance ideas about the sport. It seems to be all you've got.

HRE wrote:

Skuj wrote:

HRE, thanks for MOST of your response to my previous query....but what does "you won't find any schedules or anything" mean? :)

Um, that's pretty self-explanatory but I'll have one more go. There isn't great deal of information about Stampfl in anything Clarke wrote. He's very complimentary toward Stampfl but if you're looking for something about how Stampfl trained Clarke it's not there. The whole time with Stampfl is discussed but not in any great detail. It was certainly a very small part of Clarke's career.

I see. Sorry, I misunderstood.

(And, I don't think naf is doing "multiple handles". Sorry for this naf, but, for anyone who has been at letsrun longer than me, I cannot fathom how you cannot i.d. naf, and how anyone can insinuate that it is me, ala IQ100. But then again, I don't really care.)

the anti-Lydiard cult achieved its objective even though they had no substance. We became more interested in that than actually discussing Lydiard's aerobic phase. I guess it has all been said before?

troll:) wrote:

Skuj wrote:

But then again, I don't really care.)

Sure you do gemini other wise you would not have posted as such.

LOL

I post a lot of things, Darling. :) Troll, you make me laugh. Seriously.

I don't think naf or I are anti-Lydiard at all. I have immense respect for the man and his achievements. I was brought up on Beatles and Lydiard.

Skuj wrote:

I don't think naf or I are anti-Lydiard at all. I have immense respect for the man and his achievements.

You guys just can't bear a discussion of him or his principles here, that's all.

How about this, Derwood: we all recognize that you, sir, are even MORE SPECIAL than Lydiard. We're sure your mother would agree too. You the man. You the genius. All hail Darwin Skujins.

Now next time someone wants to talk about some aspect of Lydiardian lore, why don't you come back and read the above a dozen times and see if that doesn't temper your urge to bust into the center of the circle, jump up and down, and squeal "look at ME, look at ME!" If it doesn't, maybe you can start a separate "look at ME, discuss" thread instead, and let the adults talk in peace. We thank you in advance.

You too naf. You special, special person.

You remind me of that French Taunter in Monty Python And The Holy Grail.

And my name is Darren Skuja.

I think we covered the part about the tempo run. Though it occurs to me that when Arthur was putting his emthod together the idea of the tempo run as currently understood didn't exist, though we did them anyway in some form or other. I remember on his next to last US tour someone asked him about tempo runs and he had no idea what they were.

But as I said, Barry Magee would do the second half of a 10-12 mile run at a faster pace than the first half.

Upon further reflection, I believe Clarke wrote a book called "Run Easy" in which he gave sample schedules from various approaches, one of which was Stampfl's. It's available from used book vendors.

Skuj wrote:

I'd bet that most experienced runners did "tempo" before discovering EXACTLY what it is, and do the second half of any "conditioning" run faster than the first half, without really trying.

Certainly the case with me, anyway. Ya know....ME....."Gemini".......the center of the universe. LOL.

It just always made sense to me and many runners I grew up with that a "strongish" pace on those "aerobic" runs made a lot of sense. I think this is a natural tendency. Would you agree, letsrunners?

I am the center of my universe Skuj ;) Mum is a gemini - some frustrating things but lots of fun.

Is not this pace Arthur is talking about, the 'best aerobic pace' related to something we can all feel? And if we can feel it then we can identify it, focus on it and train it.

I think a good coach like Lydiard knows what this feeling is and also knows how to bring his athletes to know it themselves. Knowing it for oneself is really the only end-point worth aiming for IMO.

That natural tendency is more or less natural depending on the individual. A very natural athlete may have already fine tuned this in themselves whereas another athlete may take months to begin even tuning into it and years to start working at the fine tuned level of the more 'talented' athlete.

'best aerobic pace' as a phrase is more descriptive of what needs to be found than any other phrase i've come across.

It is aerobic pace which is not anaerobic at all and it is the best, ie the highest intensity you can run at and still be within the aerobic boundary.

I don't think i am a fanatic. I think i analyse critically quite well and i trust myself to eventually make the right decision. There is no way i will take on an opinion based on someone elses apparent authority. The opinion must align with my own principles of how things work or else i won't take it on.

Arthur fits. In everyway so far that i have found. Because it fits with the principles, i can trust it.

So my question to everyone else is - what are you principles?

Clown. Idiot. Anti-Lydiard cult. Fanatic. An alc. Jackass. You think you are an intellectual. Go away. No substance. Moron. Egocentric. Whatever.

Good Lydiard arguments either against my posts and my argument that Lydiard training do lack of perspective. I start by contest something I consider wrong. To name Lydiard the Father of Jogging and to give too much relevance to how to lace the shoes in what is to put that detail as an integral part of the Lydiard training when it shall be a mere Lydiard curiosity.

Skuj he tries to smoke the “pipe of peace”. Mr. Ray waits for my answers.

But don’t worry. Take for granted that i will do the aerobic phase comment or the Lydiard training blocks and most of the main Lydiard training constitutive. I imagine what you will call me then.

Some of you said “don’t take your time to post for this guy, That is what he wants.” When you will realise that the best you can do me with that offenses is that i laugh out loud when i read your quite irrational and emotional post offenses ? When you will realise that I will continue to post if you reply me or you don’t ? Save your time. You may call me “your mother f***er” or whatever or you may not reply me or ignore me. Imagine that I have no feedback of my posts at all. No debate. I will continue to post with my comments on Lydiard training. Imagine that I knew that no one will read my posts. I will continue to post my own comments about Lydiard training.

No legal organisation or whatever legal representative of Lydiard that will enable me to comment on Lydiard training in what is public domain and free data access. John Molvar wrote a book and a thesis about Lydiard training that the Lydiard legal representatives didn’t like it and they disagree about Molvar´s Lydiard interpretation but that didn’t enable him to edit and publish his own Molvar version of the Lydiard training. That’s not you that will silence me in my Lydiard comments.

Mr. Ray wrote:

"not a fanatic",

I proposed to put aside dogma and dogmatists, and help me identify, if you can, what is wrong with Lydiard training, and where I can find out more, to help me broaden my perspective.

Lydiard developed his system some 50 years ago, and possibly we have learned a couple of things since then which aren't reflected in his training methods or principles.

I could ask the Lydiard Foundation, but there is an obvious conflict of interest. Therefore I asked you, one of Lydiard's more vocal critics. Are you able to identify any gaps, and add any missing or new perspective?

All these words about meriting the world title of "Father of Jogging", or "straight lacing is the keystone to Lydiard training", whether valid or not, is simply avoiding the question.

Can you brush aside all this historical baggage and stay on topic?

Mr. Ray. Sorry if my posts and my answers don’t satisfy your curiosity or aren’t what you expect from me.

You may ask me the same questions on and on that i will reply only to what i want when i want and the way i want. I don’t take in consideration what you and all the rest you think about my post subject continuity. You ask me questions about the Lydiard issues you want that i answer. No need to repeat it on every your post reply. I think i know enough of Lydiard to understand what you ask me. But i will answer to what i want when i want and the way i want. I will post what i want when i want t and the way i want. The subject and the timetable schedule of my posts are mine not yours. I have my one post timetable agenda. Despite that the Lydiard Foundation they are the legal representatives of Lydiard and despite that Nobby is the kind of Lydiard "Pope" everyone is free to comment what is public domain about Lydiard. I may have my own interpretation about Lydiard training. Each one may have his own despite they might agree or they don’t. No Lydiard Foundation or no one else of his members can avoid my own subjective opinion in what concerns the Lydiard training as public domain. Some on this thread advise me to go out. I will not go out. You ask me some questions i intend to answer. Good questions. Why are you so anxious and worried to have my opinion ? Until now what i did i may consider the introductory aspects of my opinion about Lydiard.

I may confess that i’m not able to put my opinion about Lydiard in one single post. I’m not as good and as smart as the Lydiard Foundation that i would able to characterize what i think about the Lydiard training in 5 items as they did few sentences. I’m a kind of dumb that i need more than 2 lines of text. Don’t be anxious. Be patient and learn to wait. Post by post little by little I count on comment about what you want to know. You don’t need to ask me and remember me on and on near the same questions on each your post. Save your time. In your early post you said "Please answer just the questions relevant to points you want to discuss". That’s what i try to do. Excuse me if i have little skill of write to be able to post what I want in a condensed text.

Another aspect. I don’t have no special interest to know is what’s your opinion about the Lydiard training. When I want to know about Lydiard training my prime and trustful read it is the legal and public source – the Lydiard Foundation site in what is of free access there. Of course i did read all Lydiard books many interviews several debates and conferences long ago.

Another aspect that i have no special interest that is to know what you think about my posts or what you think about my Lydiard interpretation or your comments on my Lydiard opinion. I place myself as a Lydiard critic. Positive critics i guess, but i know that most will not agree with me in this point. Otherwise if I didn’t trust that my comments are positive i would not take my time to post about Lydiard. I don’t want to be a Lydiard student or a Lydiard converted.

You are the kind of person that asks me the question and after my post reply you knew all the answers to the questions you ask me. Then you want comment my own answers as if was me that did ask the questions. You may insist on that your discuss strategy. That will not trouble me or will pressure me to post indistinctly of your comments about my posts.

Forgive my impatience then. Whenever you are ready.

You mentioned earlier that other modern successful coaches disagree with Lydiard. Can you also clarify that as part of your answers?

To refer to Lydiard and his way as a good coach is to swallow the koolaid. Why do you not ask the questions first? Why do you accept without the critique of the method and results? It has been well established to be cult like in its hold on neophytes. Do you consider yourself to be such sim? It is avoidable. Do not by shy and ask the question. It could help you break the curse!

IQ100 (Skuj) wrote:

To refer to Lydiard and his way as a good coach is to swallow the koolaid. Why do you not ask the questions first? Why do you accept without the critique of the method and results? It has been well established to be cult like in its hold on neophytes. Do you consider yourself to be such sim? It is avoidable. Do not by shy and ask the question. It could help you break the curse!

Please can you show me how you came to this conclusion that it is a cult? Just so i can make sure i am not making a huge mistake :)

That aside i can critically analyse and i trust in the results of my analysis. I view things metaphysically and when i analysed Lydiard initially i liked it be cause it followed those same principles. Many elements fitted and even though i have already explained how i see a few things in a previous post i'll do so again.

Health and fitness go hand in hand for me and i can see they did so for Arthur. In fact on a continuum from almost dead to ready for a best ever marathon, we find health ranging from those two extremes. As Arthur promoted jogging for health to help the increasingly unfit public he also refined the high end of fitness training for the aspiring and talented few.

This in itself made me wonder if this guy was the real deal. So i looked further and found more of what i was looking for. I hadn't met any Lydiardites yet, ha ha, i didn't know they existed until letsrun.

I also find many details so precisely on. It is like he has been fine tuning his system for a long time. Like a master craftsman who makes a brilliant piece of furniture or an master artist painting his master work, i see Lydiard. Do you have an appreciation of such people in the world, or too bitter to accept there are those that have aspired and achieved and not given up?

Such details which may seem simple like 3 days a week are the hard training days all year around. The number is 3, not 2 and not 4 (although for a few weeks 4 can be tried once 3 has been adapted to for a while). 4 phases through the year. The number is 4 and not 3 or 5. Four works better. All the best have discovered this. Sharp distinction between the harder sessions and the easier sessions as is the only way to do it agreed upon by the best again.

The progressiveness of every detail. Build aerobic exclusively but then add in some hills to the long runs and gradually add more until the hill period starts. During the hill period the entire training session is an aerobic one, albeit with an anaerobic element or should i say two, a combination of power endurance and lactate tolerance. Since both are being developed neither can be emphasised to a maximal level, Perfect as a lead in to the specfic focus on the anaerobic phase where aerobic is maintained as the base even though 3 hard anaerobic sessions a week are being done.

The aerobic stays, the anaerobic enters very slowly and builds over time.

Soviet Periodisation closely matches Lydiard's Periodisation and since i'm schooled in the former i was surprised to find similarity with the latter.

------------------------------------------------------------

phase 1

Soviet: build aerobic capacity (steady running then fartlek)

Lydiard: marathon base training

phase 2

S: build strength and power endurance (gym, hills, stairs etc)

L: hill training

phase 3

S: interval training, speed endurance, training competitions

L: anaerobic training

phase 4

S: maximal speed and power, race specific training, full event schedule

L: sharpening with races

------------------------------------------------------------

a few other similarities:

-alternating heavy days and fast days.

-regular time trials during non-competition season

-10 days for the final freshening up

-preparing the program working backwards from the final peak

-developing leg speed with downhill running

-upright posture and carriage of the body (this is essential and almost never observed)

Also:

from Arthur's schedule:

"Follow by runs over 70 to 100 meters, concentrating

upon the following elements; with a jog between each run of 3 minutes:

(A) The runs to develop stride length by exaggerating the length of the strides and pushing off

hard with the back leg.

(B) another by running tall, bring your knees high and getting up high on your toes.

(C) and another by moving the legs as fast as possible to develop a quick leg turn-over."

So A is Igloi's swing style whilst B and C are just two ways to divide up Igloi's speed style. Swing and speed are simply two opposites. In one you are allowing the femur to swing as long as it can and in speed you are shortening it as much as possible. In Lydiard's A we are developed length and in his B we are developing out postural height and in C we are developing shortening. Lydiard just adds in a version to accentuate our posture maximally. Since i am attempting to do that continuously with my athletes and was something i did as an athlete i appreciate

Did you know that Jim Ryun did a hill circuit identical to Lydiard's except for different length components (although the steep uphill part was the same).

There is just so much now i could continue for ever.

It fits anthropologically for me and it fits spiritually for me.

It just fits you sceptic.

I look for the best to learn from. Lydiard and Cerutty are the best. Simplify for yourself but i don't think that is something you are interested in yet.

Mr. Ray wrote:

Forgive my impatience then. Whenever you are ready.

You mentioned earlier that other modern successful coaches disagree with Lydiard. Can you also clarify that as part of your answers?

Post by Renato Canova

Now in Italy are 8 a.m., and I am coming back to the post.

About 800m training, I use a method very different from Lydiard. This fact is not because Marathon Training is not good, but because the type of activity today is no more the same. 40 years ago, during winter there were not indoor races every where (only in US, on very small tracks), and the number of meetings during summer was very little. Peter Snell never made meetings in summer. So, he could have time for preparing, giving big importance to his basic training, but having yet long time for developing specific work. For example, in 1964 he ran a full marathon in winter (I don't remember if in 2:27 or in 2:24), then developed a big volume, running for ex. 30 x 400m in 60" recovery 1 min, about 50 days before OG.

Now, the new system of training is based on high intensity.

Athletes able running in 1'44", never have to rest to long time, losing a part of what before they were able to build. The new frontier of methodology is to use during a season many periods of specific training, with a strong modulation, but always at an intensity very high. For example, Mutua and Bungei runs about 1 hour only 1 day per week (during winter, in Kenya), but for improving their AEROBIC POWER use other system : 10 km alternating 2 km fast in 6'/6'10" and 2 moderate in 6'40", or a progression with 6' at 3'10", 5' at 3', 4' at 2'52", 3' at 2'45" and last 2' hard competitive. In every period of the season there are work of good speed : 1000 + 800 + 600 + 400 + 200, for ex., in 2'30"/ 2'22" - 1'58" / 1'52" - 1'25" / 1'18" - 56" / 51" - 24" / 22" (the first is during winter, the second when they are in top shape). Here is too long to explain every thing, but, for ex., we use special workouts for improving STRENGHT ENDURANCE for the final, like 5 x 500m with first 200m in 25", then 100m bounding in about 14", then 200m very fast again, with 7'/8' recovery. The best work of Bungei in this direction was with times of 1'04"8 - 1'05"6 - 1'06"2 - 1'05"8 - 1'06", on 24th of August this year. We use a lot of sprint climbing, on different distance. Is the preparation of a 400m runner, with the base of a 1500m runner.

If you want the exact program of Mutua, I can send you thru normal e-mail.

I will comment it later. Lydiard periodisation doesn´t seems to be as perfect as sim imagine. I will come to the subject. Right now you have at least one Great Coach and "The majer of hampions as well as thinks that Lydiard isn´t as good as that on the aspect of the periodisation.