I don't know if this means anything, but it I couldn't help thinking that Lutkenhaus' stride looked like he was running a mile when winning the 800m at Worlds, while everyone else was straining to run an 800m. I think he has tremendous upside in the mile.
I don't know if this means anything, but it I couldn't help thinking that Lutkenhaus' stride looked like he was running a mile when winning the 800m at Worlds, while everyone else was straining to run an 800m. I think he has tremendous upside in the mile.
He’s so speedy/strong he looks like he isn’t running as hard as some of the others, even when he is running as hard.
I don't know if this means anything, but it I couldn't help thinking that Lutkenhaus' stride looked like he was running a mile when winning the 800m at Worlds, while everyone else was straining to run an 800m. I think he has tremendous upside in the mile.
I saw a very powerful runner that isn’t likely to be as good in the 1500m.
The comparison is being made not on the basis of what CL might do in the future but where he is currently. The future is anybody's guess. He may not improve much - like Amos, who peaked at 18.
Coe is credited with 21.7 over the 200. He also ran 45.4 in a 400 relay (with a stumble in the start). I mentioned this because CL may be in a similar category for speed. But no comparison timewise can be too absolute when they are performing 40 years apart. Coe's times - for everything - would be considerably better today.
My assessments of where CL is speed-wise are based on what he has actually run; you are presenting nothing that actually shows he is faster except the claim of a coach about what he predicts he will do but hasn't run and with no times to back it up.
No, you are comparing a 22-year-old who was a 3:32 1500m runner by years end who barely snuck under 47 fresh to a 16-year-old who ran 46.3 as part of a double while probably being unable to go faster than 3:43-4 for 1500 at the time. It’s pretty nonsensical. The only thing they have in common is one relay leg. Why would Lutkenhaus be maxed out at 400? You don’t have an answer for that except for an unproven theory that he is comparable to Coe and a strength-based 800m guy. Does anything besides dated PBs from young adolescence back this up? No. Nijel Amos set his PB of 44.99 at age 24, so I’m not really sure what he has to do with anything either. Sensible people don’t think Cooper will run 1:37, but that doesn’t mean his 400m is static because you weirdly believe it should be as governed by some arbitrary projections around his 200m speed. Did you not just see Keely Hodgkinson vastly improve her 400m speed this very season?
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Sub-46 doesn't mean he has actual sprint speed. It can be done with about 21.7 speed over the 200 - like Coe. But he will never have 44-low (2 secs faster than his best) for the 400 in him, which would require at least 20.5 speed.
He isn't just a "kid" like some other high schooler, he is already a physically mature athlete. If he wasn't he couldn't run what he has over the 800 and he certainly doesn't have the degree of improvement up his sleeve that "kids" tend to have. Even 3 seconds is out of the question - 1:39 isn't going to occur in our lifetimes.
So you admit that Emmanuel Korir, who ran 44.2, had 20.5 speed and therefore 10.3 speed?
And remember he went 44.2 same year he ran 1:42.05…awful close time to CL…
I haven't said anything about Korir. What he ran over the 400 has nothing to do with what Lutkenhaus can do. Their running similar times over the 800 doesn't say they will be similar over 400. Juantorena ran 1:43x, so does that mean Lutkenhaus is faster than he was over 400?
I don't disagree with most of what you said. For the reasons I've said I don't think he can succeed at the 400 as well as the 800. I haven't discussed the 1500 but I also doubt that is in his wheelhouse.
I doubt we will see 44.9 for the 400 but if he does you'll be happy to say you were right and I was wrong. That should make you feel real good about yourself. I'll be pleased for you.
I might add, it seems some of you are unaware that coaches frequently talk up their athletes. I'm persuaded more by results.
Nope, you’re the one who can’t read apparently. I’m not the one who thinks he’s capable of going sub-45 right now as I stated originally on the CL 200 thread.
His coach thinks he’s ready to go 44-high, so his coach will be the one who’s proven correct if he does it, not me. But it will make most posters here happy to see you humbled if his coach is correct. Nobody likes to hear themselves talk more than you, besides maybe Harambe.
FWIW, I DO think he’s capable of 21.0/44.9 eventually in his career. Good day, mate.
Of course you think that. But there is no evidence - no times - that supports that. You might as well claim he will run 3:25 for the 1500. Good day to you, too.
You're a poor reader. His 21.8 flying 200 isn't claimed to be his limit. But it doesn't show that he is at least a second faster over the distance, as some are claiming. There is nothing that yet shows that.
I have said 21.7 or so FAT isn't out of the realm of possibility - as it was for Coe, who ran 45-mid for a 400 relay. But to run 45-flat FAT would require at least 21 sec speed or likely faster. His 800 times offer nothing about that and none of you can point to any occasion where he is running in the realm of 21/45. But you don't have a clue about sprinting.
Coe never ran 46.3 out of the blocks like Cooper. Nor did Coe ever run a relay leg as fast as Cooper’s 45.3. At the State Meet, 16 yr old Cooper doubled, and he ran a 46.3 after running a 1:47. There’s little doubt that had he not raced the 800 he would have run a little faster over the 400. Don’t be silly and try to deny this. Many of us agree with you that sub 1:40 will likely not occur in your lifetime, as you are very old.
Coe ran a relay leg as fast as you claim Lutkenhaus has. Since he was doing this over 40 years ago he is likely to be faster today - for all the reasons given for today's faster times. The point I was making is that they may have been comparable speed-wise. But Lutkenhaus still lags some distance there behind Tom Courtney, who was a 21 flat runner in the mid-50s, as were Kerr and Crothers in the early '60s.
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Coe ran a relay leg as fast as you claim Lutkenhaus has. Since he was doing this over 40 years ago he is likely to be faster today - for all the reasons given for today's faster times. The point I was making is that they may have been comparable speed wise. But Lutkenhaus still lags some distance there behind Tom Courtney, who was a 21 flat runner in the mid-50s, as were Kerr and Crothers in the early '60s.
I suspect Cooper wasn’t using Bicarb, running on a super track, or wearing superspikes when he split 45. So what exactly are the developments you’re referring to. Seems pretty made up again.
The comparison is being made not on the basis of what CL might do in the future but where he is currently. The future is anybody's guess. He may not improve much - like Amos, who peaked at 18.
Coe is credited with 21.7 over the 200. He also ran 45.4 in a 400 relay (with a stumble in the start). I mentioned this because CL may be in a similar category for speed. But no comparison timewise can be too absolute when they are performing 40 years apart. Coe's times - for everything - would be considerably better today.
My assessments of where CL is speed-wise are based on what he has actually run; you are presenting nothing that actually shows he is faster except the claim of a coach about what he predicts he will do but hasn't run and with no times to back it up.
No, you are comparing a 22-year-old who was a 3:32 1500m runner by years end who barely snuck under 47 fresh to a 16-year-old who ran 46.3 as part of a double while probably being unable to go faster than 3:43-4 for 1500 at the time. It’s pretty nonsensical. The only thing they have in common is one relay leg. Why would Lutkenhaus be maxed out at 400? You don’t have an answer for that except for an unproven theory that he is comparable to Coe and a strength-based 800m guy. Does anything besides dated PBs from young adolescence back this up? No. Nijel Amos set his PB of 44.99 at age 24, so I’m not really sure what he has to do with anything either. Sensible people don’t think Cooper will run 1:37, but that doesn’t mean his 400m is static because you weirdly believe it should be as governed by some arbitrary projections around his 200m speed. Did you not just see Keely Hodgkinson vastly improve her 400m speed this very season?
I didn't say he's maxed-out, only that he doesn't have another 2 seconds in him over the 400. The simple point you overlook is that if he genuinely had 400 speed he would have competed in the event - he would have doubled, as some 800 runners do. He hasn't. He won't. Your estimates of what you think he could do over the distance remains conjecture only. But so far we haven't seen any real 200 or 400 speed. He's still looking like an 800 specialist.
Coe ran 46.87 as his lifetime PB at age 22 nine days after running around Lutkenhaus’ PB with a 1:42.3. He ran 3:32.1 that year.
Lutkenhaus hasn’t run a 400 since his recent jump. Before it was he was already a half-second better than Coe. He also was 16 not 22. So not only does he already have Coe speed it’s likely he has better than Coe speed. Why Coe is your comp at all I don’t get
Don't forget that Coe split a 45+ on that relay. He stumble/staggered badly at the start. My guess is that negated the running start.
Coe ran a relay leg as fast as you claim Lutkenhaus has. Since he was doing this over 40 years ago he is likely to be faster today - for all the reasons given for today's faster times. The point I was making is that they may have been comparable speed wise. But Lutkenhaus still lags some distance there behind Tom Courtney, who was a 21 flat runner in the mid-50s, as were Kerr and Crothers in the early '60s.
I suspect Cooper wasn’t using Bicarb, running on a super track, or wearing superspikes when he split 45. So what exactly are the developments you’re referring to. Seems pretty made up again.
So he's only just discovered these things now? He was probably running on dirt, with Snell's shoes, and quaffing Cokes. I would bet there is every form of modern technology behind his performances, as with most top athletes today.
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1500 world record pace is 55 pace (after 41 opening 300) aka 1:50 800 pace. I know we’re thinking of him as more of a 4/8 guy but come on…get this 1:42 low kid who’s growing by the day, put him in a paced 1500 and who knows what will happen. I don’t even know if he has any 16/15 marks from high school.
Regardless, should be fun to watch him the rest of the year.
The kid is built like a sprinter/mid-d runner. He's 6'1" and already pretty solid at only 17 years old. He'll likely add more muscle as his training goes on.
I'm sure he'll run some fast 1500s but his genetics look like he's more suited to the 4/8 rather than 8/15.
He’s going to run sub 1:40 and 3:28 low. 1500 not nearly as good as his 800 but still world class. 2:15 in the thon at age 35
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Looks like his last 1600 was in 8th grade with a 4:45 which is great. I'd love to see him choose to go up instead of down. He's ran decent cross for his grade.
Looks like his last 1600 was in 8th grade with a 4:45 which is great. I'd love to see him choose to go up instead of down. He's ran decent cross for his grade.
The comparison is being made not on the basis of what CL might do in the future but where he is currently. The future is anybody's guess. He may not improve much - like Amos, who peaked at 18.
Coe is credited with 21.7 over the 200. He also ran 45.4 in a 400 relay (with a stumble in the start). I mentioned this because CL may be in a similar category for speed. But no comparison timewise can be too absolute when they are performing 40 years apart. Coe's times - for everything - would be considerably better today.
My assessments of where CL is speed-wise are based on what he has actually run; you are presenting nothing that actually shows he is faster except the claim of a coach about what he predicts he will do but hasn't run and with no times to back it up.
No, you are comparing a 22-year-old who was a 3:32 1500m runner by years end who barely snuck under 47 fresh to a 16-year-old who ran 46.3 as part of a double while probably being unable to go faster than 3:43-4 for 1500 at the time. It’s pretty nonsensical. The only thing they have in common is one relay leg. Why would Lutkenhaus be maxed out at 400? You don’t have an answer for that except for an unproven theory that he is comparable to Coe and a strength-based 800m guy. Does anything besides dated PBs from young adolescence back this up? No. Nijel Amos set his PB of 44.99 at age 24, so I’m not really sure what he has to do with anything either. Sensible people don’t think Cooper will run 1:37, but that doesn’t mean his 400m is static because you weirdly believe it should be as governed by some arbitrary projections around his 200m speed. Did you not just see Keely Hodgkinson vastly improve her 400m speed this very season?
Allow a man to dream, all he needs to do to run a 1:37.9 is run a 3:24 1500 and 43 400... shii that might be hard
No, you are comparing a 22-year-old who was a 3:32 1500m runner by years end who barely snuck under 47 fresh to a 16-year-old who ran 46.3 as part of a double while probably being unable to go faster than 3:43-4 for 1500 at the time. It’s pretty nonsensical. The only thing they have in common is one relay leg. Why would Lutkenhaus be maxed out at 400? You don’t have an answer for that except for an unproven theory that he is comparable to Coe and a strength-based 800m guy. Does anything besides dated PBs from young adolescence back this up? No. Nijel Amos set his PB of 44.99 at age 24, so I’m not really sure what he has to do with anything either. Sensible people don’t think Cooper will run 1:37, but that doesn’t mean his 400m is static because you weirdly believe it should be as governed by some arbitrary projections around his 200m speed. Did you not just see Keely Hodgkinson vastly improve her 400m speed this very season?
Allow a man to dream, all he needs to do to run a 1:37.9 is run a 3:24 1500 and 43 400... shii that might be hard
If that's another kid, I would say that's all fantasy, but Lutkenhaus is something else, I wouldn't rule that out really. I mean, if Rudisha had had access to pacing light, bicarbs and super shoes without having to do rounds, he would've run 1:39, probably 1:38. And Lutkenhaus seems to be even more talented. Who else has run 1:42 at 16 (or even sub 1:45 for that matter)?
So he's only just discovered these things now? He was probably running on dirt, with Snell's shoes, and quaffing Cokes. I would bet there is every form of modern technology behind his performances, as with most top athletes today.
Idk, seems like you are projecting as usual. We are comparing to Coe not Snell and my point was they were probably both wearing very light spikes. He didn’t do it on the Paris/Tokyo tracks. The point is to not diminish Coe but it’s also kinda crazy you can’t see the difference between people saying Cooper could improve 1-1.5s without jumping to 2s. Sebastian Coe was an 8/15 athlete with plus speed. Cooper it sure seems like 4/8 athlete with plus endurance. He hasn’t competed at 400 as a pro because he’s 17 lol. He did run the 600 indoors and he will likely run the 400 outdoors I’d think . Was he supposed to double last year at USAs? Or at USA Indoors.
I didn't say he's maxed-out, only that he doesn't have another 2 seconds in him over the 400. The simple point you overlook is that if he genuinely had 400 speed he would have competed in the event - he would have doubled, as some 800 runners do. He hasn't. He won't. Your estimates of what you think he could do over the distance remains conjecture only. But so far we haven't seen any real 200 or 400 speed. He's still looking like an 800 specialist.
We saw 46.3 on a double at age 16, and he’s improved very much as a runner since. That doesn’t mean I think he’ll become world class but it’s possible he will be quite competitive. Doubling in the 400/800 in near impossible in the US, but were he coming from a weaker country I wouldn’t doubt him being considered for a 4x400 one day.
Coe never ran 46.3 out of the blocks like Cooper. Nor did Coe ever run a relay leg as fast as Cooper’s 45.3. At the State Meet, 16 yr old Cooper doubled, and he ran a 46.3 after running a 1:47. There’s little doubt that had he not raced the 800 he would have run a little faster over the 400. Don’t be silly and try to deny this. Many of us agree with you that sub 1:40 will likely not occur in your lifetime, as you are very old.
Coe ran a relay leg as fast as you claim Lutkenhaus has. Since he was doing this over 40 years ago he is likely to be faster today - for all the reasons given for today's faster times. The point I was making is that they may have been comparable speed-wise. But Lutkenhaus still lags some distance there behind Tom Courtney, who was a 21 flat runner in the mid-50s, as were Kerr and Crothers in the early '60s.
Can’t comapre Cooper to fully developed runners who were at their peak. He isn’t fully developed not at his peak.
Ok. It’s shoes and “bicarb”. Where are all the other guys his age who should at least be close to him if this is the case. Why the massive gap?
You are incredibly disingnuous and ignorant.
Lutkenhaus ran 45.3 relay leg at 16. He also ran 46.3 in the 400m after running a 1:47.04 800m. Coe’s best 400m feom the blocks was 46.8, and he was fresh and at his peak. We don’t know what Cooper can actually do yet in the 200m, other than the 200m he ran over two years ago in lousy weather as part of a day that involved several other races as usual, as you can see on his YT channel. He was 15 at the time and it’s nonsense to believe he has stagnated so far at any distance.
Comparing him to 24 year old Tom Courtney is a bit premature - but there is some physical similarity. You’re here only to attempt to bother people, and because of an odd jealousy that you and others have toward a younster who has so far had an amazingly successful career.
CL has great potential in almost any running event - he'd probably do well at the hurdles too. The point is - he's already world class in his main event, so if it 'aint broke, don't fix it'.