The question of what was before the Big Bang misunderstands the nature of time - as another commenter has pointed out. Time is part of existence; without existence there is no time. So there is nothing before existence - but we find that as hard to comprehend as infinity.
I’m as confident that it’s “wrong” as I am confident that the other 4000 religions here on Earth are all the product of men without divine intervention, because there’s no credible evidence for such contact.
I agree on the religions but I don't think manmade religions all being obviously made up means there is no God.
I think the evidence for a creator is all around us.
We’ll disagree on that last part. I’ve never seen anything to suggest that there’s any intent in this Universe.
I agree on the religions but I don't think manmade religions all being obviously made up means there is no God.
I think the evidence for a creator is all around us.
We’ll disagree on that last part. I’ve never seen anything to suggest that there’s any intent in this Universe.
I'd go beyond that and say there is active evidence of no intent in the Universe! certainly in the realm of the affairs of man, there's no evidence of a g-d unless it is a malevolent personality, given the only evidence so far presented in human history is largely negative. Frankly, I cannot fathom why - if there were a divine power in charge of the universe - it would even care to be involved in anything so profane as the nature of creation. The closest religious philosophy i've ever seen that I could have ever said comes closest to this view is neo-platonism (and it's off-shoots), which recognized that The One would never be able to create or maintain a universe. to create pre-supposes some profane intent and action. that stuff would have to be beneath The One.
I agree on the religions but I don't think manmade religions all being obviously made up means there is no God.
I think the evidence for a creator is all around us.
We’ll disagree on that last part. I’ve never seen anything to suggest that there’s any intent in this Universe.
You seem to be an intelligent and very knowledgeable person but I going to challenge you on your last statement.
First let state that all phenomena that we see has a physical reason/cause (whether we can identify it or not) for occuring but that doesn't negate the idea that there is evidence of intent in the Universe.
Since this an important critical discussion, I would be interested in your response.
Let's start with the big bang, that could have stayed as a massless point of energy for all eternity but isn't nice that that the big bang did occur to allow eventual life?
And wasn't it nice that right after the big bang the four main forces ( electromagnet, gravity, strong and weak nuclear) were perfectly balanced to allow molecules to form leading to planets, etc. and eventually life. I guess we were just real lucky.
How these random chemical reactions suddenly for some reason developed DNA so life could exist. There is no reason for chemical reactions to form DNA. This isn't like evolution that has a reason.
How about the awareness of self through consciousness and the desire to find God. All these everyday chemicals getting together to result in consciousness.
There is much more and yes I agree with you about physical reasons for all of this, but intent so life with conscious thought can form is evident.
Too much falls into place for there to be no evidence of intent.
We’ll disagree on that last part. I’ve never seen anything to suggest that there’s any intent in this Universe.
I'd go beyond that and say there is active evidence of no intent in the Universe! certainly in the realm of the affairs of man, there's no evidence of a g-d unless it is a malevolent personality, given the only evidence so far presented in human history is largely negative. Frankly, I cannot fathom why - if there were a divine power in charge of the universe - it would even care to be involved in anything so profane as the nature of creation. The closest religious philosophy i've ever seen that I could have ever said comes closest to this view is neo-platonism (and it's off-shoots), which recognized that The One would never be able to create or maintain a universe. to create pre-supposes some profane intent and action. that stuff would have to be beneath The One.
I don't know what to think. But I will say that if there is "The One" their intentions would go way over the head of even the collective intelligence of all mankind let alone "Cliff" of letsrun.com
Humans are great at finding patterns where none exist.
Yes, it is amazing how the fundamental forces work and also amazing that chemistry with the right conditions can lead to abiogenesis. But none of that implies a plan or an intent. The fact that we’re talking about this now and Martians aren’t comes down to the circumstances that prevented life from evolving there but allowed it to survive here.
I understand what you’re saying, about the astronomical chances of all this working out. But it’s also a great, big Universe. With that many swings at the plate, the Universe was bound to get a hit. To take that the other way around, you would be contending that God made this unbelievably vast Universe for so much of it to be dead and incapable of supporting life.
Humans are great at finding patterns where none exist.
Yes, it is amazing how the fundamental forces work and also amazing that chemistry with the right conditions can lead to abiogenesis. But none of that implies a plan or an intent. The fact that we’re talking about this now and Martians aren’t comes down to the circumstances that prevented life from evolving there but allowed it to survive here.
I understand what you’re saying, about the astronomical chances of all this working out. But it’s also a great, big Universe. With that many swings at the plate, the Universe was bound to get a hit. To take that the other way around, you would be contending that God made this unbelievably vast Universe for so much of it to be dead and incapable of supporting life.
Thanks for the response, I kind of expected, in the vastly huge universe that highly improbable things occur, argument. It has its merits.
But we are not looking for proof of intention, we are just looking for evidence of intention. I guess it's somewhat subjective but there are a lot of things that are not just only improbable but that there is no reason for occuring . Just think of the end result. What we have is a cluster of common chemicals combined with bacteria, viruses and fungi to create a consciousness that seeks or wonders about God. That this cluster of chemicals and micro other species creates an entity with consciousness is hard to fathom.
We’ll disagree on that last part. I’ve never seen anything to suggest that there’s any intent in this Universe.
I'd go beyond that and say there is active evidence of no intent in the Universe! certainly in the realm of the affairs of man, there's no evidence of a g-d unless it is a malevolent personality, given the only evidence so far presented in human history is largely negative. Frankly, I cannot fathom why - if there were a divine power in charge of the universe - it would even care to be involved in anything so profane as the nature of creation. The closest religious philosophy i've ever seen that I could have ever said comes closest to this view is neo-platonism (and it's off-shoots), which recognized that The One would never be able to create or maintain a universe. to create pre-supposes some profane intent and action. that stuff would have to be beneath The One.
You stated, "There is no evidence of God unless it is a malevolent personality". With all the pain and suffering in the world I can see why you would think that.
I don't know the reason. Religious people will just say have faith that there are good reasons but we can't know them.
I have some other thoughts on this. (Not reasons just thoughts about it) A baby goes through much pain/discomfort at the moment of birth but an amazing life awaits on the other side. Maybe pain or suffering can be thought of as temporary compared to after life.
I went through a time when my wife had a painful life threatening illness. (She is fine now). As I look back on that time, I have to honestly say it was a period when I was the best person I have been.
I'd go beyond that and say there is active evidence of no intent in the Universe! certainly in the realm of the affairs of man, there's no evidence of a g-d unless it is a malevolent personality, given the only evidence so far presented in human history is largely negative. Frankly, I cannot fathom why - if there were a divine power in charge of the universe - it would even care to be involved in anything so profane as the nature of creation. The closest religious philosophy i've ever seen that I could have ever said comes closest to this view is neo-platonism (and it's off-shoots), which recognized that The One would never be able to create or maintain a universe. to create pre-supposes some profane intent and action. that stuff would have to be beneath The One.
You stated, "There is no evidence of God unless it is a malevolent personality". With all the pain and suffering in the world I can see why you would think that.
I don't know the reason. Religious people will just say have faith that there are good reasons but we can't know them.
I have some other thoughts on this. (Not reasons just thoughts about it) A baby goes through much pain/discomfort at the moment of birth but an amazing life awaits on the other side. Maybe pain or suffering can be thought of as temporary compared to after life.
I went through a time when my wife had a painful life threatening illness. (She is fine now). As I look back on that time, I have to honestly say it was a period when I was the best person I have been.
Further clarification, although it was an extremely difficult time it was a period when I was more selfless, more empathetic, and hard working than I had ever been. Maybe closer to God. Although I would never want to go through that again, I look back with pride on who I became. Good came out of that horrible experience
I'd go beyond that and say there is active evidence of no intent in the Universe! certainly in the realm of the affairs of man, there's no evidence of a g-d unless it is a malevolent personality, given the only evidence so far presented in human history is largely negative. Frankly, I cannot fathom why - if there were a divine power in charge of the universe - it would even care to be involved in anything so profane as the nature of creation. The closest religious philosophy i've ever seen that I could have ever said comes closest to this view is neo-platonism (and it's off-shoots), which recognized that The One would never be able to create or maintain a universe. to create pre-supposes some profane intent and action. that stuff would have to be beneath The One.
I don't know what to think. But I will say that if there is "The One" their intentions would go way over the head of even the collective intelligence of all mankind let alone "Cliff" of letsrun.com
ha! touche. i'm not suggesting "Clifford" on letsrun.com knows the mind of g-d. All I meant by that was, I can see the point that neo-platonists were making by "The One". Just like others on this thread have stated that it's useless to ask what came before the universe, since time is a characteristic of the universe, i'm saying that neo-platonists would say "The One" could not have intentionally created this existence since that requires action, the action requires intent, the intent requires desire. Action, intent and desire cannot be characteristics of the "The One", since they are characteristics of this universe, this existence. If that is what g-d is like, I have certainly know ability to know the mind of g-d and it has no bearing on me at any rate.
Humans are great at finding patterns where none exist.
Yes, it is amazing how the fundamental forces work and also amazing that chemistry with the right conditions can lead to abiogenesis. But none of that implies a plan or an intent. The fact that we’re talking about this now and Martians aren’t comes down to the circumstances that prevented life from evolving there but allowed it to survive here.
I understand what you’re saying, about the astronomical chances of all this working out. But it’s also a great, big Universe. With that many swings at the plate, the Universe was bound to get a hit. To take that the other way around, you would be contending that God made this unbelievably vast Universe for so much of it to be dead and incapable of supporting life.
Thanks for the response, I kind of expected, in the vastly huge universe that highly improbable things occur, argument. It has its merits.
But we are not looking for proof of intention, we are just looking for evidence of intention. I guess it's somewhat subjective but there are a lot of things that are not just only improbable but that there is no reason for occuring . Just think of the end result. What we have is a cluster of common chemicals combined with bacteria, viruses and fungi to create a consciousness that seeks or wonders about God. That this cluster of chemicals and micro other species creates an entity with consciousness is hard to fathom.
This product suggests intentionality to me.
We’re only the latest edition in this process of evolution that began billions of years ago with the first cellular organisms on Earth. We’re not the only conscious animal: other primates, dolphins and elephants all demonstrate having a sense of self. Even cats and dogs display clear emotions and personalities. What our more recent ancestors did was expand on the range of vocalizations they could make, which led to the development of spoken language. If you compare the vocalizations of chimpanzees, they use their voices to convey information, but their range is much more limited compared to us.
Once spoke language developed, the ability for a much more detailed exchange of information between individuals led to the development of cultures and societies, which is unique to our species so far.
I'd go beyond that and say there is active evidence of no intent in the Universe! certainly in the realm of the affairs of man, there's no evidence of a g-d unless it is a malevolent personality, given the only evidence so far presented in human history is largely negative. Frankly, I cannot fathom why - if there were a divine power in charge of the universe - it would even care to be involved in anything so profane as the nature of creation. The closest religious philosophy i've ever seen that I could have ever said comes closest to this view is neo-platonism (and it's off-shoots), which recognized that The One would never be able to create or maintain a universe. to create pre-supposes some profane intent and action. that stuff would have to be beneath The One.
You stated, "There is no evidence of God unless it is a malevolent personality". With all the pain and suffering in the world I can see why you would think that.
I don't know the reason. Religious people will just say have faith that there are good reasons but we can't know them.
I have some other thoughts on this. (Not reasons just thoughts about it) A baby goes through much pain/discomfort at the moment of birth but an amazing life awaits on the other side. Maybe pain or suffering can be thought of as temporary compared to after life.
I went through a time when my wife had a painful life threatening illness. (She is fine now). As I look back on that time, I have to honestly say it was a period when I was the best person I have been.
wow! sorry you two have had to go through that. I realize your story ended well, but so many of these same ones do not. sometimes the pain and suffering doesn't end in anything so amazing - and it certainly seems to me to be capricious. Nonetheless, I definitely identify with your assertion that going through suffering often makes us better. you'd think since the majority of posters here are or were runners, we'd know that what's often the reward is the suffering itself. I get it, Tristan.
I think I understand what you are trying to argue, but it is not compelling. As the "product," as the thing that has come to be in this universe, you will inevitably look around and see that it's all perfectly suited for your specific existence. It can't be otherwise; if it were, you would not exist. It might be evidence that it was all "made for you." It's also evidence that you were "made by it."
A T-Rex with a brain back in the day would have looked around and said the same thing you are saying, just prior to extinction.
Humans are great at finding patterns where none exist.
Yes, it is amazing how the fundamental forces work and also amazing that chemistry with the right conditions can lead to abiogenesis. But none of that implies a plan or an intent. The fact that we’re talking about this now and Martians aren’t comes down to the circumstances that prevented life from evolving there but allowed it to survive here.
I understand what you’re saying, about the astronomical chances of all this working out. But it’s also a great, big Universe. With that many swings at the plate, the Universe was bound to get a hit. To take that the other way around, you would be contending that God made this unbelievably vast Universe for so much of it to be dead and incapable of supporting life.
Thanks for the response, I kind of expected, in the vastly huge universe that highly improbable things occur, argument. It has its merits.
But we are not looking for proof of intention, we are just looking for evidence of intention. I guess it's somewhat subjective but there are a lot of things that are not just only improbable but that there is no reason for occuring . Just think of the end result. What we have is a cluster of common chemicals combined with bacteria, viruses and fungi to create a consciousness that seeks or wonders about God. That this cluster of chemicals and micro other species creates an entity with consciousness is hard to fathom.
This product suggests intentionality to me.
It could suggest a few things. Intentionality is one; another is the anthropic principle, which comes in a few variations.
A common one is that it is clearly too much of a coincidence that the physical attributes of the universe (the strength of charge on an electron, the strength of the fundamental forces, etc.) have just the right values to allow particles, stars, planets, molecules, life, etc. to form. A slight change in the value of many of these attributes would result in a dead or empty/dark universe.
Amazing coincidence. Or maybe not. If there are many universes, each with different values of the attributes then maybe all but one are empty/dead. The one which isn't is obviously the one that we're in, observing it to have just the right values to support... etc. Some see that as near proof that there can't be just one universe.
Having said that, this universe seems to be dead (although not empty/dark) apart from our planet. If we're the only life in this universe (which blows my mind) then maybe this universe's parameters are only just about capable of supporting life. Perhaps other universes have better parameters and are teeming with life on every planet.
Or maybe there is a creator, but it isn't the adult version of Father Christmas, it's a small project team working on universe simulation and we're just one of their attempts, running on a GPU cluster. I've never bought into simulism though - it seems too much like the kind of dumb chain of if-thens that philosophers love to generate definitive outcomes from.
So you wonder as most humans do. The big bang is a term given by linear thinking men of science. Yet once you entered this world all you brought with you was wiped away by those who stand before you in your books and classrooms. To understand there was never a beginning is beyond comprehension. To assume we came from nothing is what you are taught to believe. All that IS was always there, but the expression is like a light switch that was turned on. The energy was always there. Please ask me more.
Thanks for the response, I kind of expected, in the vastly huge universe that highly improbable things occur, argument. It has its merits.
But we are not looking for proof of intention, we are just looking for evidence of intention. I guess it's somewhat subjective but there are a lot of things that are not just only improbable but that there is no reason for occuring . Just think of the end result. What we have is a cluster of common chemicals combined with bacteria, viruses and fungi to create a consciousness that seeks or wonders about God. That this cluster of chemicals and micro other species creates an entity with consciousness is hard to fathom.
This product suggests intentionality to me.
We’re only the latest edition in this process of evolution that began billions of years ago with the first cellular organisms on Earth. We’re not the only conscious animal: other primates, dolphins and elephants all demonstrate having a sense of self. Even cats and dogs display clear emotions and personalities. What our more recent ancestors did was expand on the range of vocalizations they could make, which led to the development of spoken language. If you compare the vocalizations of chimpanzees, they use their voices to convey information, but their range is much more limited compared to us.
Once spoke language developed, the ability for a much more detailed exchange of information between individuals led to the development of cultures and societies, which is unique to our species so far.
Ok, I don't dispute your comments about animals having conscious awareness. And maybe the point about utterances leading to language leading to conscious awareness makes some sense. But I think all life is amazing. Random chemicals forming DNA by chance is an awfully big jump. Chemicals/molecules and bacteria and fungi and viruses working together to form a an aware conscious entity is also a huge leap of faith thinking it all resulted from random interactions. Just as you would think I am making a leap of faith thinking there is some intention here.
But you know I am set in what I believe and you are set in how you see things. That won't change.😊
On a side note: I have a belief that is based on pure faith and would seem crazy to many. I believe in the Holy Trinity and as part of that I believe the Holy Spirit is in every living thing. So we all have a bit of God in all of us. So yes animals like people are special too.
Thanks for the response, I kind of expected, in the vastly huge universe that highly improbable things occur, argument. It has its merits.
But we are not looking for proof of intention, we are just looking for evidence of intention. I guess it's somewhat subjective but there are a lot of things that are not just only improbable but that there is no reason for occuring . Just think of the end result. What we have is a cluster of common chemicals combined with bacteria, viruses and fungi to create a consciousness that seeks or wonders about God. That this cluster of chemicals and micro other species creates an entity with consciousness is hard to fathom.
This product suggests intentionality to me.
It could suggest a few things. Intentionality is one; another is the anthropic principle, which comes in a few variations.
A common one is that it is clearly too much of a coincidence that the physical attributes of the universe (the strength of charge on an electron, the strength of the fundamental forces, etc.) have just the right values to allow particles, stars, planets, molecules, life, etc. to form. A slight change in the value of many of these attributes would result in a dead or empty/dark universe.
Amazing coincidence. Or maybe not. If there are many universes, each with different values of the attributes then maybe all but one are empty/dead. The one which isn't is obviously the one that we're in, observing it to have just the right values to support... etc. Some see that as near proof that there can't be just one universe.
Having said that, this universe seems to be dead (although not empty/dark) apart from our planet. If we're the only life in this universe (which blows my mind) then maybe this universe's parameters are only just about capable of supporting life. Perhaps other universes have better parameters and are teeming with life on every planet.
Or maybe there is a creator, but it isn't the adult version of Father Christmas, it's a small project team working on universe simulation and we're just one of their attempts, running on a GPU cluster. I've never bought into simulism though - it seems too much like the kind of dumb chain of if-thens that philosophers love to generate definitive outcomes from.
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