Transgender runner wins regionals by over a minute

Wise Old Man wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

From the Guardian story you posted, Maddie is a 13-year-old boy with shoulder-length hair and an affinity for dresses and big hairbows who was "transitioned" by his parents the summer before he started kindergarten.

You say Maddie "wants to play youth softball." But the reality is that Maddie wants to play girls' softball - and he wants female students' hard-won rights to fair, safe, female-only sports under Title IX to be removed so he can get his way.

The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.

Specifically, from the time he was a toddler Maddie always liked wearing dresses and playing with girls. As a tyke, Maddie also enjoyed putting his wee feet into his Sunday school teacher's high-heeled shoes and clomping around in them the way many kids of both sexes do. What's more, once when he was a little boy Maddiie told his mom that he'd like to cut his penis off.

Instead of lovingly accepting their little boy as he was - and insted of helping him to accept, love and feel at home in his body - the parents decided to brainwash Maddie into believing he's a girl who was somehow born in a wrong body.

I feel bad for Maddie, because I think he's the victim of extreme child abuse. But I also think Maddie should be on boys' sports teams with others of his sex.

If the other boys in Maddie's school and sports leagues are mean or unwelcoming to Maddie because of Maddie's clothing preferences, the way Maddie wears his hair and Maddie's atypical "gender identity," the boys need to be taught, encouraged and expected to do their bit for "diversity, equity and inclusion" by accepting Maddie as one of their own and showing Maddie utmost kindess and compassion. Boys of Maddie's age are perfectly capable of doing this.

I think trying to shoehorn Maddie into the female category of sports is wrong. I also think it's wrong and inappropriate for Maddie at age 13 and beyond to be using the girls' locker rooms and communal toilets, and having sleepovers with girls.

I also think it's sexist and male supremacist AF to expect girls to be the ones who do all the work of "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the case of boys like Maddie whilst all the other boys in Maddie's school and community are entirely let off the hook.

So when push comes to shove, you deny transness exists and it’s all a product of sex stereotypes and abusive parents and you can’t even manage to use Maddie’s correct pronouns. You’ve revealed your backstory to us, so I guess I do understand the genesis of your trans hate. You profess you want to treat trans people with dignity and then you turn around and tell them they are the way they are because they’ve been abused or brainwashed, and then you purposefully misgender them and sarcastically deny their identity. Your plan is to belittle and segregate. That’s nothing but hate pure and simple.

comedyreIeaf wrote:

Learn to distinguish between sports and society, biology and identity, fantasy and reality. One can be against biologic males competing against biologic females and still accept that individuals will have different identities in their personal lives. I might have sexual preferences that are different than yours. Such a preference does not mean I should be allowed to race against biologic females in a competitive sporting venue, when such a separation exists wholly due to biologic differences.

At the end of the day, a biologic girl lost the opportunity to run at state, another lost a regional championship. Just because that particular state is not that competitive is immaterial and is not adequate consolation for the individual who was displaced. The state I live in is very competitive. Girls train hard for four years and don’t qualify for state. It is hard enough competing against other biologic females. It is an entirely different story when biologic males are added to the mix.

Wise Old Man wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

From the Guardian story you posted, Maddie is a 13-year-old boy with shoulder-length hair and an affinity for dresses and big hairbows who was "transitioned" by his parents the summer before he started kindergarten.

You say Maddie "wants to play youth softball." But the reality is that Maddie wants to play girls' softball - and he wants female students' hard-won rights to fair, safe, female-only sports under Title IX to be removed so he can get his way.

The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.

Specifically, from the time he was a toddler Maddie always liked wearing dresses and playing with girls. As a tyke, Maddie also enjoyed putting his wee feet into his Sunday school teacher's high-heeled shoes and clomping around in them the way many kids of both sexes do. What's more, once when he was a little boy Maddiie told his mom that he'd like to cut his penis off.

Instead of lovingly accepting their little boy as he was - and insted of helping him to accept, love and feel at home in his body - the parents decided to brainwash Maddie into believing he's a girl who was somehow born in a wrong body.

I feel bad for Maddie, because I think he's the victim of extreme child abuse. But I also think Maddie should be on boys' sports teams with others of his sex.

If the other boys in Maddie's school and sports leagues are mean or unwelcoming to Maddie because of Maddie's clothing preferences, the way Maddie wears his hair and Maddie's atypical "gender identity," the boys need to be taught, encouraged and expected to do their bit for "diversity, equity and inclusion" by accepting Maddie as one of their own and showing Maddie utmost kindess and compassion. Boys of Maddie's age are perfectly capable of doing this.

I think trying to shoehorn Maddie into the female category of sports is wrong. I also think it's wrong and inappropriate for Maddie at age 13 and beyond to be using the girls' locker rooms and communal toilets, and having sleepovers with girls.

I also think it's sexist and male supremacist AF to expect girls to be the ones who do all the work of "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the case of boys like Maddie whilst all the other boys in Maddie's school and community are entirely let off the hook.

So when push comes to shove, you deny transness exists and it’s all a product of sex stereotypes and abusive parents and you can’t even manage to use Maddie’s correct pronouns. You’ve revealed your backstory to us, so I guess I do understand the genesis of your trans hate. You profess you want to treat trans people with dignity and then you turn around and tell them they are the way they are because they’ve been abused or brainwashed, and then you purposefully misgender them and sarcastically deny their identity. Your plan is to belittle and segregate. That’s nothing but hate pure and simple.

RunRagged wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

So when push comes to shove, you deny transness exists and it’s all a product of sex stereotypes and abusive parents and you can’t even manage to use Maddie’s correct pronouns. You’ve revealed your backstory to us, so I guess I do understand the genesis of your trans hate. You profess you want to treat trans people with dignity and then you turn around and tell them they are the way they are because they’ve been abused or brainwashed, and then you purposefully misgender them and sarcastically deny their identity. Your plan is to belittle and segregate. That’s nothing but hate pure and simple.

Good grief, mate, you come off as unhinged. How is what I said "deny[ing] transness exists"?

Yes, I believe that in order to provide everyone with fairness, safety, dignity, comfort, wellbeing, respect and equal opportunity to participate and have a chance of reaching their full potential, it's sometimes not only legitimate but actually advisable and necessary to segregate by sex.

How this is is hateful and belittling is beyond me.

If males like Maddie and Soren cannot tolerate being in with others of their sex, then it makes sense to consider creating additional categories, facilities and programs for them. I have no problem with that. In fact, I think additional options are a good idea.

What I oppose - and what's not going to fly with the general public - is the demand that all unhappy, confused males who like dresses and "girly stuff" like Maddie - or who develop autogynephilia in adolescence like quite a few teenage boys do, especially in today's era of internet porn - be shoehorned into female sports and spaces. This male supremacist forced teaming is to the disadvantage, detriment and danger of those of us who actually are girls and women, and it's being imposed on from on high without our consent. Indeed, the people who came up with these policies and practices, and decided to put them in place, never even bothered to consult with and ask us in the first place.

Following your reasoning to its logical conclusion, it's wrong to segregate in sports or other areas of life on any grounds. Athletes and students of both sexes, all ages, all abilities should participate and compete in sports together, use the same locker rooms, sleep in the same rooms on overnight trips. Academcially, instead of segregating by age/grades, subject matter, proficiency, learning potential, etc, schools should go back to having one-room classrooms where everyone is smushed together.

Good luck with that.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Crascrenbon wrote:

This, by the way, is why I'm not overly vocal on the "fairness" arguments -- I argue trans "girls" are boys, not girls, because it's true. Never mind that boys are faster, stronger, whatever; never mind that this boy took one finishing position from every girl in the race, even though that's obviously going to be part of the whole argument. For me the issue is simple: he is not a girl and never will be, so he should get out of the girls race. He can dress how he wants and wear his hair how he wants or whatever, I feel like we were just recently making a lot of progress in getting rid of "a boy has to look like this," "a girl has to behave like that," and so on. He's no less of a boy because he might happen to be very feminine, but he's not a girl at all.

You're not alone in this. It's the reason why your opinion on the transgender sporting issue is suspect.

It would be like saying, "Men and women are not equal, so women should not vote." or "Black and white people are not equal, so they should not go to the same schools."

If you get the first part of the statement wrong: i.e. "Trans girls are boys," then I am not putting much stock into what you say next

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Jefe in the CO wrote:

I'm curious as to why you want us "to stop posting about this"?

Trans activism reminds me of the NRA's position - never compromise, never give an inch, or the cause is lost. Silencing opposition appears to be the end goal.

I'm sure I've noted this in other threads, as a runner, I, and I'm sure many others, think the answer to many of life's problems can be cured with more miles. So yes, I would love it if the LGBTQ community participated in sports. Just because you participate in sport it doesn't entitled you to compete unfairly in competitions. As WOM relentlessly argues; be proud of your personal athletic achievements and don't get all wrapped up in winning a medal.

What I mean by “stop posting about this” is that the next time Soren wins a race somewhere, we don’t get a message board post where someone calls her a guy.

You’ve got a nice laid back philosophy that I admire. Like you said, let her participate and let the chips fall where they may. She may win a medal, she may not, but it doesn’t need to be a big hoopla about it either way.